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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2003 : 22:54:40
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Today's medical doctors don't tell us much besides "all things in moderation" when it comes to food. We need some fat in our diet, but not too much. You can overdose on vitamin A and wind up dead, or you can eat nothing with vitamin A in it, and wind up dead. Examples abound. "Eat a balanced diet, with a variety of foods," is about the only advice a healthy person can get if he/she asks, "what should I eat?"
However, others claim that particular foods, or combinations thereof, are necessary to our (human beings) health. Or, that some things that most people would consider to be "food" are, in fact, slowly killing us. I'm not talking about barely-edible stuff - roots and leaves which are now labeled as "dietary supplements" under the DSHEA, or things like the fruit of the sausage tree, which is considered to be "famine food" - but real foodstuffs, like particular kinds of meat, or eggplants, or even the ubiquitous potato.
The question I toss out here for discussion is this: are there any particular foods which are required to live a healthy life, or is it more a matter of just getting the necessary nutrients and calories, from whatever source we can?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2003 : 07:52:52 [Permalink]
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Interesting question, Dave W.
Beyond getting the basic nutrients and vitamins we all need, I wonder if nutrional needs are different for everybody.
A hopefully not too boring personal example: My body has what the doctor calls an iron block. From the time I was two years old, I've had to take iron supplements or else I become anemic. (This sucks since I'm a runner and it affects my endurance.)
I've had doctors tell me: "For heaven's sake, Renae, eat a steak now and then." Trouble is, for moral and health reasons, I don't eat red meat or pork. Plus, I hate citrus foods, so my Vitamin C intake is lower than it should be and Vitamin C helps your body absorb iron.
I would become a vegetarian if my body would let me. However, if I gave up poultry and fish, my iron intake would be even LOWER. Also, it would be tougher to regulate my blood sugar and therefore my appetite.
So, for me, it's crucial to have a grilled chicken breast or Dungeness crabcakes every now and then to keep my iron from plummeting and to stabilize my blood sugar.
I guess this is a long way of saying that perhaps there are certain foods that certain people need in order to stay healthy. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 07:15:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Today's medical doctors don't tell us much besides "all things in moderation" when it comes to food. We need some fat in our diet, but not too much. You can overdose on vitamin A and wind up dead, or you can eat nothing with vitamin A in it, and wind up dead. Examples abound. "Eat a balanced diet, with a variety of foods," is about the only advice a healthy person can get if he/she asks, "what should I eat?"
However, others claim that particular foods, or combinations thereof, are necessary to our (human beings) health. Or, that some things that most people would consider to be "food" are, in fact, slowly killing us. I'm not talking about barely-edible stuff - roots and leaves which are now labeled as "dietary supplements" under the DSHEA, or things like the fruit of the sausage tree, which is considered to be "famine food" - but real foodstuffs, like particular kinds of meat, or eggplants, or even the ubiquitous potato.
The question I toss out here for discussion is this: are there any particular foods which are required to live a healthy life, or is it more a matter of just getting the necessary nutrients and calories, from whatever source we can?
Required foods, no. Getting the balance of nutrients and calories from whatever source we can is pretty much it.
All things in moderation should pretty much get you your daily vitamin, mineral, protien, carbohydrate, etc levels. Although, there are excesses in "junk foods" which should be avoided. Man cannot live on McDonald's fries alone.
My personal fave is a nice juicy steak, medium rare.
Information coming out of the medical community on what foods to avoid or what foods to eat for healthy living have run to extremes at times. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 08:30:00 [Permalink]
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Agree, VD.
It is interesting to note that the aboriginal peoples of the Americas had a much healthier diet than the European invaders.
I have forgotten where this happened, in Africa, maybe, but a few years ago an almoost bibical plague of locusts wiped out the countries crops. People began to starve.
People were starving in the midst of plenty because locusts and similar inscets are an excellent scource of nutrition. Go figger.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
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Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 09:29:51 [Permalink]
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People at risk of getting such things as type 2 diabetes, by eating sensibly, may never get the disease. Those with type 2 diabetes can often effectively treat it with diet only. A sensible diet. An almost any food in moderation diet, which is more lifestyle than diet anyway. Of course, going back to learn how to eat right can feel like a diet, believe me. No more eating shit loads of junk food and foods heavy in simple carbohydrates.
A sensible diet can prevent the onset of diabetes and probably many other ailments...
Alas, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it float... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 09:46:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Today's medical doctors don't tell us much besides "all things in moderation" when it comes to food. We need some fat in our diet, but not too much. You can overdose on vitamin A and wind up dead, or you can eat nothing with vitamin A in it, and wind up dead. Examples abound. "Eat a balanced diet, with a variety of foods," is about the only advice a healthy person can get if he/she asks, "what should I eat?"
I personnaly live by a few simple, non-medical/scientific rules; I dont make meat the center of my dish (that is, I'll have a piece of meat, but it rarely dominates the dish... And only quality meat, from a butcher I trust). I'll have usualy three different vegetables, of at least two different colors (told you it wasn't scientific). I figure that way I probably eat most of the nutrients I need... I dont do fast food often (maybe once a month). I dont eat a lots sweet, beer, chips, deep-fryed stuff, etc... I really like having a glass (or two) of red wine while I eat (the good stuff, which is why I dont drink everyday... probably a good thing too!). I love fruits of all kind and usually drink a litter of non-sweetened fruit juice a day. Almost. I'm 35 and have pretty much always eaten like this; the habit comes from my mom, so I know it's good :).
I short, it's pretty much the "Eat a balanced diet, with a variety of foods, without abusing anything" kinda deal... Sorry Dave, wish I could be more usefull :) |
Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 12:06:21 [Permalink]
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Maglev wrote:quote:
I short, it's pretty much the "Eat a balanced diet, with a variety of foods, without abusing anything" kinda deal... Sorry Dave, wish I could be more usefull :)
Nonono! Opinions are what I was looking for, and thus yours is useful, indeed.
Going back a bit...
Renae wrote:quote:
I guess this is a long way of saying that perhaps there are certain foods that certain people need in order to stay healthy.
I'm not so sure. Everyone needs iron in their diet, you just need more of it, right? And certainly, if disease or morality dictate that a person mostly eliminate a certain nutrient from his/her diet, a substitute source will be required (I'm reminded of the story of the guy who depleted his B-12 stores after 40 years of vegetarianism).
By the way, I find it odd that hemochromatosis (the opposite of your troubles) can also cause fatigue and/or problems with endurance. It's also the only disease I can think of for which bloodletting is the accepted modern treatment. But I'm getting off topic. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 08:06:25 [Permalink]
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Yup, Dave, I do need more iron. Good clarification.
Some people (like PETA) advocate giving up cow's milk dairy products. Soy, almond, or rice milk products are better in that they have no saturated fat, right? But soy etc. products aren't as easily available in the typical daily American diet. So to advocate that no or less cow's milk dairy products is better for everyone is irresponsible and incorrect, IMO. How many of us ask for soy milk in our lattes, or soy cheese on our Pizza Hut pizza? Not many, I bet. Plus, soy can affect estrogen levels (I've been known to get mild hot flashes if I eat lots of soy nuts; no kidding.)
Since low calcium intake is a risk factor for osteoperosis, cow's milk dairy may be the best (although not a mandtory) choice for people, especially women and particularly women with other risk factors for osteoperosis (ie small bone structure, family history). (Calcium-magnesium supplements are always an option, too and I don't know if they're better or more poorly absorbed than dairy.)
I think my main point was that we're all a bit different in terms of what's best for us to eat, and that nutrition isn't One Size Fits All. Lifestyle, preferences, morals, activity level, family history, personal history, and metabolism should be taken into consideration when nutritional requirements are set, IMHO. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 20:16:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Some people (like PETA) advocate giving up cow's milk dairy products. Soy, almond, or rice milk products are better in that they have no saturated fat, right? But soy etc. products aren't as easily available in the typical daily American diet. So to advocate that no or less cow's milk dairy products is better for everyone is irresponsible and incorrect, IMO.
While it is true that milk is the best source for calcium there are plenty of other fruits and vegitables and nuts where one can get it.
quote:
I think my main point was that we're all a bit different in terms of what's best for us to eat, and that nutrition isn't One Size Fits All. Lifestyle, preferences, morals, activity level, family history, personal history, and metabolism should be taken into consideration when nutritional requirements are set, IMHO.
Glad you said that.
My doctor (a reputable one from a well known university) told me not to eat any milk products, so there are times when that is a recommendation (for some people). (Yes, I know you said 'everyone' ) |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2003 : 07:17:54 [Permalink]
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I'm aware that calcium exists in other foods. However, it exists in much smaller amounts. Example: 1/2 cup cooked broccoli = 47 mg of calcium. 8 oz yogurt = 250 mg calcium. Considering an adult needs 1000 mg of calcium a day, that's a hell of a lot of broccoli.
The best non-dairy source of calcium I could find was for calcium-enriched tofu, which is not part of the daily diet of the average American, I wager.
I said it would be irresponsible to make a sweeping generalization that everyone should give up dairy. It might indeed be a good recommendation for someone with milk allergies or lactose intolerance--or for someone who is dilligent about taking calcium supplements and eating lots of broccoli, tofu, and nuts.
But we're talking Americans here--the fast food, high-fat, high-protien, high-refined-carb culture. Yogurt and low-fat cheese are certainly preferable to donuts and potato chips, anyway. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2003 : 16:37:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
that's a hell of a lot of broccoli.
Mmmmmm, Broccoli. (drool) I love broccoli.
Almonds too.
quote:
The best non-dairy source of calcium I could find was for calcium-enriched tofu, which is not part of the daily diet of the average American, I wager.
My partner, who has become a naturlized Americam, cooks that yukkie stuff (tofu) all the time. It's disgusting. Asians....what are ya gonna do!???
quote:
But we're talking Americans here--the fast food, high-fat, high-protien, high-refined-carb culture. Yogurt and low-fat cheese are certainly preferable to donuts and potato chips, anyway.
They get what they choose. It's their fault if they get sick. The information is out there. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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PruplePanther
Skeptic Friend
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2004 : 09:30:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Some people (like PETA) advocate giving up cow's milk dairy products. Soy, almond, or rice milk products are better in that they have no saturated fat, right? But soy etc. products aren't as easily available in the typical daily American diet. So to advocate that no or less cow's milk dairy products is better for everyone is irresponsible and incorrect, IMO.
While it is true that milk is the best source for calcium there are plenty of other fruits and vegitables and nuts where one can get it.
Where i live the water is so hard that u almost have to eat with chopsticks or a fork. its FULL of calcium and magnisum. Bone stuff. If i wanted to make a mint of money i'd've bottled the stuff and exported it worldwide. "BONE WATER" i'd called it.  
Too bad the poluters with help of state senators started shoving thier waste stuff down deepwells...they call it deep well injection...and so turned some of the most healty water in the world into a seething cesspool of heavy metals and other poisonous stuff.
Hard water is a GREAT source of calcium tho it makes REALLY bad tasting coffee and curdles tea even before the milk is added.  Hard water is just thousands of years old cleen pristine aquifer waters...is there any such thing left?...with lots of disolved limestone. Another way to get the same stuff is to by "Dolomite power" from the health store and add it to something like smashed potatoes or in homemade bread. No gritty taste that way. Dolomite is just another kind of limestone and is as RICH as a Kennedy in calcium and magnesium.
Another way...an ancient southwestern american way...is to grind the maize or corn in a rock bowl with a rock. The corn is nicely "stone ground" with some rock dust getting added to corn meal. Full of calcium and magnesium. BONE stuff. TOOTH stuff.
Renae. Ever heard of putting a rusty nail into an apple overnite then eating the apple to get a hefty dose of iron? Home remedy. Never tried it. |
"If I don't know where we are, I can't plot a course home." Major Carter, SG-1 |
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