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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2004 : 09:18:43 [Permalink]
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hippy4christ
quote:
jmcginn: Okay, how about this: all of the mythologies I know of teach that the Earth is flat, and since the Bible doesn't, how about we at least exclude those that do. Oh, I've been forgetting one of my doctrines. I believe (so this doesn't mean all that much to you) that anyone with a good heart, good intentions, and faith, can recieve healing.
Ok now you got me tickled. Hippy for the majority of the history of the Christian religion, Christians interpreted the Bible as saying both the Earth was flat and it was at the center of the Universe. In fact there are still some Christians today who claim the round earth teaching is from the devil and against the Bible. Christians used to punish people like Copernicus who taught the Earth was not the center of the Universe and the stars were not just beautiful little decorations put up for our amusement.
Now if the Christian interpretation of their mythology can change so dramatically in the light of new knowledge is it not possible for this to be true for other mythologies? Sorry, but I am a little bit ignorant on what other mythologies teach on the shape of the Earth so you will have to help me out here. But if the Christian mythology and the same Bible can be interpreted so differently isn't also possible for the interpretations of Egyptian, Greek, Norse, Native American, etc. mythologies to change in such a way?
Finally can you show me one place in the Bible where it clearly shows that the Earth is a sphere and not the center of the Universe? The Isaiah verse does not hold much water, since it refers to a 2D circle and the Hebrew word used can also be interpreted as either a “vault” or a “compass”. However you can find many verses in the Bible that indicates the Earth is fixed (on pillars for example) and mdoes not move. Something we know is completely wrong today.
Again hippy you have resorted to special pleading for your mythology based on what you believe, not what the evidence says. You want me to give you mythology special consideration over other mythologies, but you cannot demonstrate any reason why I should.
I once had an online discussion with a Muslim and he wanted me to do the same for the Koran. He listed verse after verse describing how accurately the Koran described such things as cosmology, sub atomic particles, bacteria, etc. Many of these things we have only learned in modern times. However when I asked him what the next big great scientific discovery would be, he couldn't tell me. He in essence said that the meanings of the Koran wouldn't be clear to him until the discovery was made. Then it became quite clear to me that he was applying patterns post hoc to metaphoric verses that could be interpreted in one of many ways.
So hippy can your Bible tell me what the next great scientific discovery will be?
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 15:58:28 [Permalink]
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All: I'm going to have to do some backing down, clarifications, and apologies. First, I'd like to say that I'm backing down on John Fagan, and that I shouldn't have tried to use him. But I would like to clarify that I never was trying to say that I believed the story, I was just throwing it out onto the floor. I understand how you could have gotten confused about that, and I apologize. I would also like to say that the probable reason for my recent screw-up is that I've been trying to put out too much quantity, and not enough quality. So I'll try to put more thought into what I say, but I probably won't be saying as much.
Mab: I wasn't trying to use the Fagan story as evidence of miracles, I was throwing it out there for discussion. And I realize and accept that because I was born into this religion, I have to have it disproven in order to stop believeing it, instead of trying to prove it in order to believe it. But if I find that Christianity as I know it cannot be disproven, Then I'll go about proving Christianity. Also, all of you must make a distinction between common Christianity and the Bible. There's hundreds of denominations, so logically, only one of them comes closest to the Bible, if any of them even come close. I don't believe in denominations, I believe in Jesus as presented by the Bible. That said, the churches teach ignorance, but the Bible teaches1 Thessalonians 5:21.
According to my believe system, if you are evil-hearted or don't believe that you will recieve a miracle, than you probably won't be miraculously healed. I suppose He could heal someone in order to spite them, but I doubt that happens. As to the size of talents, my Strong's Concordance will tell me, so I'll tell you next time, but I already know that it in the range of hundreds of pounds. Now, golfball-sized hail is normal, and usually weighs less than a pound. But we're talking about a 400-pound chunk of ice falling out of the clear blue, and scientists are baffled as to how it happened. It isn't from outer space, and normal hail gets heavy enough to drop at less than a pound. I know that something that science hasn't yet explained isn't proof of a miracle, but a miracle is scientifically unexplainable. And I'm not saying that this single 400 pound chunk of ice is fullfillment of prophecy, I'm just saying it makes me wonder.
Dave: Kinda like I told Mab, 'no medical explanation' doesn't equal miracle, but a mirculous healing will not have a medical explanation. But anyway, I'm dropping the whole Fagan thing, I believe that Doomar has given us a much better example to work with. She claims to have been miraculously healed. If I get some time, I'll look at her site. And yes, any miraculous healing would be an extraordinary thing: 'extra' 'ordinary'. As I pointed out to Mab, normal sized hail is less than a pound. There have been several cases of 50 pound chunks of ice, and that alone is amazing. But a 400 pound peice of ice! It actually isn't a fullfillment of prophecy, they haven't destroyed any cities; but it might be a warning. And if it were satisfactorily proven to me that Christianity was false, I would probably then see if any others were true, but it probably wouldn't take me very long to conclude that none of them were. I might then either try to become a physicist or a wanderer. But so much of my life is based on my belief system, so I don't really know.
Doomar: Welcome. I seem to have a somewhat more questioning nature than you, but I hope that we can all try to have a discussion with as few preconceptions as possible.
jmcginn: I'll have to get back to you.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 11:56:08 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
Dave: Kinda like I told Mab, 'no medical explanation' doesn't equal miracle, but a mirculous healing will not have a medical explanation.
Why not? Remember the story about the guy who was trapped on his roof in a flood? The guy refuses various rescue attempts, saying "God will provide," but he finally drowns. When he meets God, he asks, "why did you let me drown like that," and God replies, "what do you mean? I sent you rescuers on a raft, a boat, and finally a helicopter!"
So, why does a Divine healing require a lack of a medical explanation? Who are you to place such limits upon God? Who's to say that it is not a miracle that somebody finally noticed what penicillin was doing? Perhaps God just "tweaked" their minds in the right direction. It may look like a completely mundane occurence, but true works of God can be completely indistinguishable from "real life," if you allow God to do whatever He wants. Once again, back to question #2 in this thread.quote:
But anyway, I'm dropping the whole Fagan thing, I believe that Doomar has given us a much better example to work with. She claims to have been miraculously healed. If I get some time, I'll look at her site.
No, Doomar's healing is much less compelling, as it hasn't been examined by umpty-ump doctors, or written up by the Vatican as a miracle. His thread can be found here, and is largely seen by other members of that forum as not particularly surprising. And there's this:"A pilonidal cyst may become infected only once or may repeatedly come back in the same place." "Most people are free of further problems with pilonidal cysts after drainage alone or after surgical removal of the cyst." (Northwest Colon and Rectal Clinic, P.S.) And so, it's quite possible his doctor was wrong in telling him the cyst would return in a year. Since Doomar doesn't tell us he had the later "pain and swelling" diagnosed, he cannot claim with any certainty that it was another cyst. Lastly, he's probably never seen his neighbor's medical records, much less confirmed her diagnosis on his own.
So no, if you're going to talk about medical miracles, Fagan is much better (for the case you are attempting to build) than Doomar. Especially when the latter has expressed a lack of interest in learning why he's been symptom-free since that episode.quote:
And yes, any miraculous healing would be an extraordinary thing: 'extra' 'ordinary'. As I pointed out to Mab, normal sized hail is less than a pound. There have been several cases of 50 pound chunks of ice, and that alone is amazing. But a 400 pound peice of ice! It actually isn't a fullfillment of prophecy, they haven't destroyed any cities; but it might be a warning.
And it might have a perfectly normal explanation, as well. It's not like these things come crashing down so frequently that they can be studied very well. At least a few of them, it appears, are probably from airplanes.quote:
And if it were satisfactorily proven to me that Christianity was false...
Well, let's examine that for a minute: what would it take to prove to your satisfaction that "Christianity" is "false"? I put those words in quotes because you'll have to define what you mean by them. "Christianity" typically refers to people who believe that Jesus was a deity, after all, and since there are a lot of you around, it is certainly true that people believe that.quote:
...I would probably then see if any others were true, but it probably wouldn't take me very long to conclude that none of them were. I might then either try to become a physicist or a wanderer.
Are such goals denied to you because of your current beliefs?quote:
But so much of my life is based on my belief system, so I don't really know.
Now I am very curious about this last statement. If you were shown, to your satisfaction, that God does not tinker in the workings of people and nature here on Earth, what parts of your life - aside from prayer and other devotional rituals - would really change? It's not like we heathens don't have jobs, families, hobbies, taxes, pets, etc.. Our lives are really no different from yours, with the single exception of a single belief. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 18:03:12 [Permalink]
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Dave: When I spoke of 'miraculous healing' I was speaking specifically of healings which are not physically possible. Like a broken arm instantly being healed. I'm sure that Yahweh does encourage healing by natural means, but that isn't the question on the floor. I haven't looked at Doomar's case, I was merely saying that it is a good example because it was a living person telling you that they were miraculously healed. I don't know much about cysts, but here's a guy I know who will witness about several miracles he has seen.
Dave, this is pilgrim. My experiance with divine health and healing date back to 1978. at that time i made up my mind to trust jesus for my health, and the health of my family, figuring that if jesus wanted me sick, it was rebellion to seek relief from a doctor, and if jesus didn't want me sick, he certainly had the power to fix whatever was wrong. now when i talk about a miracle, i mean something that can be seen with my own two eyes. other, more mundane things can be considered miracles, but i don't really think there is any question on the floor concerning pretty sunsets. in my walk since 1978 i have personally experianced instantaneous healing on several occasions, and visually witnessed it on several others. i have been healed instantly of full blown tonsilitus, second -degree burns, and broken bones. i have visually seen healings of broken bones, rashes, burns, as well as seen drowning victims come back from the dead, and seen the swollen leg of a copperhead victim recede before our eyes, all in response to no other treatment than prayer in the name of jesus.
Now then Dave, I know that experience that is not repeatedly shown under controlled conditions is not considered usable for scientific purposes, but I think of this more as a court case, where both eyewitness testimony as well as scientific evidence is used in determining the verdict.
As to your other questions: I might use the word 'Christianity' very broadly when describing the denominations of the world, but when I talk about 'Christianity' being 'false,' I'm using a more strict definition. In this case, if it were shown that there is widespread errors in historical or scientific data presented in the Bible, or if it can be shown that the Bible is unreliable, then to me 'Christianity' would be 'false.' Now then, being a physicist or a wanderer is not denied to me by Christianity, in fact wandering is rather encouraged, but I feel that following Jesus has a goal for me that does not include being a physicist or a wanderer, at the moment. And while your comments about 'heathen' lives being no different from 'our' lives, if you were speaking of the majority of Christian denominations, I would agree with. But I take the Bible much more seriously than the denominations. Here are some changes that would occur: first and foremost, if I could be convinced that there was no God at all, then I would conclude that there's no actual Right and Wrong. Right and Wrong would just be rules made up by society, so why would I care if I broke them if I got away with it? Of course there's a whole multitude of changes that would occur: I might work on the Sabbath, eat pigs and shrimp, start making oaths, no longer be a pacifist, not care about destroying the earth, sleeping around, I might be very tempted to steal, and much, much more. Yes, being a follower of Jesus changes the way I would live. As to megacryometeors: I was wrong about the size of a talent. The Reader's Digest Family Guide to the Bible lists a talent as being about 75.5 lbs. Now, I have an article about megacryometeors at home, and as soon as I find it, I'll relay the findings to you.
jmcginn: You have to distinguish between the Christian denominations and the Bible. That the Catholic Church taught for years that the Earth was flat is meaningless to me, I don't believe that that Church is the proper body of Christ. Now, the verses that I looked up which concern 'the pillars of the Earth' and things of that nature were vague and poetic. No, I don't know of any passages stating that the Earth is a sphere that isn't the center of the universe. Are there any passages in specific which you would like to discuss? As to the next scientific discovery, I dunno, but here's a prophecy for you: a giant EMP from the sun will knock out all or almost all electricity on Earth. Revelation 16:8-10 Now all we have to do is sit around and wait to see if it happens.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 19:04:59 [Permalink]
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Doomar's healing is much less compelling, as it hasn't been examined by umpty-ump doctors, or written up by the Vatican as a miracle. His thread can be found here, and is largely seen by other members of that forum as not particularly surprising. And there's this:"A pilonidal cyst may become infected only once or may repeatedly come back in the same place." "Most people are free of further problems with pilonidal cysts after drainage alone or after surgical removal of the cyst." (Northwest Colon and Rectal Clinic, P.S.)
Here's a link that is a "tad" more accurate on what Pilonidal Disease is:http://www.pilonidal.org/condition_overview.htm
So no, if you're going to talk about medical miracles, Fagan is much better (for the case you are attempting to build) than Doomar. Especially when the latter has expressed a lack of interest in learning why he's been symptom-free since that episode.[quote]
How does one learn such things, Dave?
A miracle is something that happens beyond the natural realm of explanations. When Jesus healed a man born blind, that was a miracle. When he open a deaf ear instantly, that was a miracle. When he raised a dead man to life, that was a miracle. There are many things that can be called miracles and their are other amazing things that happen as a result of prayer, like healings. Peter's mother had a fever and Jesus rebuked it and she was instantly well and got up and served everyone - a healing. Now when Jesus spoke to the man with the palsy who couldn't get out of his bed, and the man rose up and walked home, that was an awe inspiring miracle. Not every healing is a miracle, unless it was you it happened to. You, above everyone else, knew what you felt like and what you couldn't do before and what you can do now. If you were a lame man that Jesus healed, it would be a miracle to you. You thought you'd never walk right again, and now you're walking. But nothing that anyone says to Dave will make a difference. If Dave witnesses such an event, he may change his mind or just explain it away. After all, a group of soldiers saw an angel roll the stone from Jesus tomb and still lied about the event for money. I agree with hippy that God probably isn't going to do miracles for someone who is unbelieving and not seeking for help from God. "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble" Proud and humble people are both sinners and don't deserve anything, but for some reason, God is really turned off by prideful people and is willing to listen to humble folk. Go figure. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/20/2004 19:10:45 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 20:34:31 [Permalink]
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Hippy wrote:quote:
Dave: When I spoke of 'miraculous healing' I was speaking specifically of healings which are not physically possible. Like a broken arm instantly being healed.
Okay, so neither Fagan's nor Doomar's healing falls into that category.quote:
I'm sure that Yahweh does encourage healing by natural means, but that isn't the question on the floor.
No, but part was, "what constitutes a miraculous healing?"quote:
I haven't looked at Doomar's case, I was merely saying that it is a good example because it was a living person telling you that they were miraculously healed. I don't know much about cysts...
I didn't either, before reading up on them through reliable medical resources on the Web. I certainly won't claim to be an expert, but none of the sources I consulted said, "will always recur," or "any pain or swelling in the region indicates a recurrence," so without a diagnosis, we can tell nothing about Doomar's alleged healing whatsoever, and he doesn't care.quote:
...but here's a guy I know who will witness about several miracles he has seen.
[snip]
Now then Dave, I know that experience that is not repeatedly shown under controlled conditions is not considered usable for scientific purposes, but I think of this more as a court case, where both eyewitness testimony as well as scientific evidence is used in determining the verdict.
And pilgrim's testimony would probably not make into a courtroom alone. Courts require both eyewitness testimony and physical evidence. You can't convict a person of murder if you don't have a body. Two dozen people can say, "I saw Hippy shoot pilgrim," and you'd walk away if the cops couldn't find pilgrim's corpse (the assumptions, of course, are that you're innocent, pilgrim went on an unannounced pilgrimage, and the two-dozen witnesses have something against you).
So, lacking before-and-after hard evidence, the testimony is just so much talk.
But let me assure you of one thing: I want it to be true. I very much badly want miracles to happen, as they would make life (and health) so much easier.quote:
As to your other questions: I might use the word 'Christianity' very broadly when describing the denominations of the world, but when I talk about 'Christianity' being 'false,' I'm using a more strict definition. In this case, if it were shown that there is widespread errors in historical or scientific data presented in the Bible, or if it can be shown that the Bible is unreliable, then to me 'Christianity' would be 'false.'
Well, which parts? Large sections of the Bible are agreed to be simple histories, just talking about what happened where and when. These are surely things which I wouldn't claim to be "false," but they don't really matter one bit when it comes to the question of the existence of God or the Divinity of Jesus.
Other parts you claim are "poetic" and thus shouldn't be taken literally, but since you get to make that claim after and objection has been brought up, it's hardly fair. Perhaps you should list all of the Bible passages which you think are literally true as written, first, and then we can compare those to what science and history tell us.
And the problems with the scientific "data" in the Bible include Lamarkian inheritance, grasshoppers having only four legs, rabbits chewing their cud, pi not being 3.14159 (approx.), a global flood which left no evidence, portals in the sky which let in rain, the Earth resting on pillars and immobile, the Sun moving around the Earth, and, most obviously, the Earth only having a 6,000-year history. I'm sure I've left a few items out, but as a scientific "text," the Bible fares quite poorly.quote:
Now then, being a physicist or a wanderer is not denied to me by Christianity, in fact wandering is rather encouraged, but I feel that following Jesus has a goal for me that does not include being a physicist or a wanderer, at the moment.
If it's not too personal, what is that goal?quote:
And while your comments about 'heathen' lives being no different from 'our' lives, if you were speaking of the majority of Christian denominations, I would agree with. But I take the Bible much more seriously than the denominations. Here are some changes that would occur: first and foremost, if I could be convinced that there was no God at all, then I would conclude that there's no actual Right and Wrong. Right and Wrong would just be rules made up by society, so why would I care if I broke them if I got away with it?
So if it weren't for God, you would be a sociopath? Even if they're just rules imposed by society, that society tends to not be very forgiving if you break the rules. Murder isn't illegal because of the Ten Commandments, it's illegal because indiscriminate killing imposes a burden on society as a whole, and the victims' families and loved ones in particular. Most atheists follow the rules because we have empathy for our fellow human beings, and care how they feel.quote:
Of course there's a whole multitude of changes that would occur: I might work on the Sabbath, eat pigs and shrimp, start making oaths, no longer be a pacifist, not care about destroying the earth, sleeping around, I might be very tempted to steal, and much, much more.
If you're not already tempted to do these things, you won't be if you lose your faith, either. As you are well aware, sin is about giving in to temptation (mentally or actually), and not simply being tempted.
Out of curiosity, which day of the week, in your opinion, is the Sabbath?quote:
Yes, being a follower of Jesus changes the way I would live.
Except for the sociopath part, and maybe the "working on the Sabbath" part (everyone takes days off now and then), I really don't see how. After all, if God isn't setting the rules, then what is inherently wrong with working on the Sabbath, or eating pigs and shrimp?quote:
As to megacryometeors: |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 20:50:40 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
Here's a link that is a "tad" more accurate on what Pilonidal Disease is:http://www.pilonidal.org/condition_overview.htm
Which doesn't tell me anything new.Pilonidal Cysts rarely go away on their own. Most require excision surgery although there are cases of "disappearance" after a lancing or antibiotic treatment. "Rarely" doesn't mean "never."Pilonidal Cysts remain a major problem for diagnosing and treating in the medical community at large. With the advent of the internet, this problem is getting better but there are still an appalling number of doctors and nurses out there with limited knowledge at best and incompetence at worst. How competent was your doctor?quote:
How does one learn such things, Dave?
How does one learn which things? That you're uninterested in learning about your own healing? You said so.quote:
A miracle is something that happens beyond the natural realm of explanations. When Jesus healed a man born blind, that was a miracle. When he open a deaf ear instantly, that was a miracle. When he raised a dead man to life, that was a miracle. There are many things that can be called miracles and their are other amazing things that happen as a result of prayer, like healings. Peter's mother had a fever and Jesus rebuked it and she was instantly well and got up and served everyone - a healing. Now when Jesus spoke to the man with the palsy who couldn't get out of his bed, and the man rose up and walked home, that was an awe inspiring miracle. Not every healing is a miracle, unless it was you it happened to. You, above everyone else, knew what you felt like and what you couldn't do before and what you can do now. If you were a lame man that Jesus healed, it would be a miracle to you. You thought you'd never walk right again, and now you're walking.
Okay, so miracles are completely subjective, have no standard by which one can measure them, and so are outside the realm of science. In other words, they're like art: I know it when I see it, and nothing scientific can either prove nor disprove them. In that case, if it is indeed the case, people should quit saying, "medical science can't explain it, therefore it must be a miracle," since its status as "miracle" is completely independent of whether there's a medical explanation or not.quote:
But nothing that anyone says to Dave will make a difference. If Dave witnesses such an event, he may change his mind or just explain it away. After all, a group of soldiers saw an angel roll the stone from Jesus tomb and still lied about the event for money. I agree with hippy that God probably isn't going to do miracles for someone who is unbelieving and not seeking for help from God. "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble" Proud and humble people are both sinners and don't deserve anything, but for some reason, God is really turned off by prideful people and is willing to listen to humble folk. Go figure.
Then perhaps you should turn your pride down a notch or two, Doomar. Your arrogance in telling people (especially me in this post, and evolutionists in general) what they will think or do is astoundingly not humble.
Matthew 7:3-5:Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, "Here, let me take the speck out of your eye," when all the time there is a plank in your own? You hypocrite! First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 01:56:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Are there any passages in specific which you would like to discuss? As to the next scientific discovery, I dunno, but here's a prophecy for you: a giant EMP from the sun will knock out all or almost all electricity on Earth. Revelation 16:8-10 Now all we have to do is sit around and wait to see if it happens.
Hippy
Very interesting interpretation you make.
If I may be so bold as to suggest that the effects described might be localised, then the prophecy has already come true. I'm sure the inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki felt burnt by the Bomb, and if I recall correctly, a solar eruption was said to have caused the major blackout in North Eastern US.
Edited to add...:
Doh! Dave, I didn't read your follow-ups before posting. Obviously, you are right in what can constitute fulfilment of the prophecy. |
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| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/21/2004 02:13:09 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 11:10:50 [Permalink]
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Hook, line and sinker ...
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
A miracle is something that happens beyond the natural realm of explanations. When Jesus healed a man born blind, that was a miracle. When he open a deaf ear instantly, that was a miracle. When he raised a dead man to life, that was a miracle. There are many things that can be called miracles and their are other amazing things that happen as a result of prayer, like healings. Peter's mother had a fever and Jesus rebuked it and she was instantly well and got up and served everyone - a healing. Now when Jesus spoke to the man with the palsy who couldn't get out of his bed, and the man rose up and walked home, that was an awe inspiring miracle. Not every healing is a miracle, unless it was you it happened to.
Is there any other possible explanation for these purported miracles ?
Every time I hear about faith healing I am reminder of a book I read 20 years ago. "The Healers" by James Randi (not sure about the title). |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 13:39:12 [Permalink]
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It's The Faith Healers. I've just about finished reading it.
The reason I haven't brought it up more is that the things Doomar and Hippy (and pilgrim) are bringing up aren't obviously money-making scams.
Oh, I can't help but be reminded of this:...And they brought before Jesus a man on a stretcher, and said to Him, "Jesus, this man is sick of the palsy!"
Jesus said, "If I had to lay in bed all the time, I'd be sick of the palsy, too."
And they said unto Him, "Jesus, thy one-liners are as good as thy jokes!"
- Rowan Atkinson |
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Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 08:53:41 [Permalink]
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hippy4christ,
quote:
jmcginn: You have to distinguish between the Christian denominations and the Bible. That the Catholic Church taught for years that the Earth was flat is meaningless to me, I don't believe that that Church is the proper body of Christ.
Obviously this argument could be extended to any mythology. Those believers of Ra who claimed he ejaculated into his mouth to create the world were not the true body of Ra. Again I am waiting for you to document why your mythology is more special than that of Ra or any other mythology as you claim it is for some reason more likely than others.
quote:
Now, the verses that I looked up which concern 'the pillars of the Earth' and things of that nature were vague and poetic.
Again the same applies as above. Maybe the whole ejaculate in Ra's mouth thing was poetic, analogous, etc. If you allow the poetic license to be extended to you mythology to explain away difficult parts than to be logically consistent we must do the same for other mythologies as well. Do you not agree?
quote:
No, I don't know of any passages stating that the Earth is a sphere that isn't the center of the universe. Are there any passages in specific which you would like to discuss?
No, not at all, I was wondering where in the Bible it teaches the Earth is not flat, as you claimed above Okay, how about this: all of the mythologies I know of teach that the Earth is flat, and since the Bible doesn't, how about we at least exclude those that do.. Maybe I misunderstood your claim here. I thought you were implying the Bible taught the correct shape of the Earth, but it appears that maybe you are claiming that the Bible is silent on the shape of the Earth and thus is not incorrect on the subject. Is that correct? And any place that seems to indicate a flat immobile Earth is metaphoric or poetic in nature?
If so I can accept that, as long as we can apply similar allowances to other mythologies. Then however we are back to step 1, and that is why is your mythology more special than others?
Also if the pillars of the Earth are poetic language than it could be argued that the mythologies that supposedly teach the Earth is flat are also being poetic. Thus is the problem when trying to interpret poetic language.
quote:
As to the next scientific discovery, I dunno, but here's a prophecy for you: a giant EMP from the sun will knock out all or almost all electricity on Earth. Revelation 16:8-10 Now all we have to do is sit around and wait to see if it happens.
Revelations
16:8
And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
16:9
And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
16:10
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Again here we see the problem with interpreting poetic language. You have interpreted this as an EMP from the sun that knocks out almost all electricity on Earth. A literal reading gives no such prophecy as you described so we are left to interpret it poetically. Your interpretation however does not follow the flow of the text as there is a break between 16:9 and 16:10 as they describe two different angels and two different punishments. Also the idea that it would knock out almost all electricity violates the verse's statement the kingdom was full of darkness. Some electricity or even fire for that matter, or the light of the sun would not render a kingdom full of darkness. Which leaves us to interpret poetic language, which can lead to a thousand different interpretations of the possible events described in the 3 verses given.
Lastly while possibly physically possible, an EMP of the magnitude needed to knock out all electricity on the planet would have to be so strong as to knock out you and I as well (not to mention it wouldn't effect the other side of the planet). Thus you and I and every other person on the planet (assuming that an EMP from somewhere could effect the entire planet) would all perish at that moment as our nervous systems would be fried. That wouldn't leave much for the remaining 3 angels to do now would it?
Edited to add
Sorry for the duplicate response in regards to the prophecy, I see now tha t Dave has covered it as well and he did a better job than I. |
| Edited by - jmcginn on 02/23/2004 08:55:58 |
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ivanisavich
Skeptic Friend
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 19:18:55 [Permalink]
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Here's an interesting piece of scripture:
quote:
Isaiah 40:22 - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Although the context of the verse is rather poetic, it is interesting that the earth is referred to as a "circle", as the people of the day would have had no way of knowing the earth was round.
Just a tad bit of food for thought...could mean nothing though. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 20:17:29 [Permalink]
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ivanisavich wrote:quote:
Although the context of the verse is rather poetic, it is interesting that the earth is referred to as a "circle", as the people of the day would have had no way of knowing the earth was round.
Just a tad bit of food for thought...could mean nothing though.
Well, go find a high point - like a sand dune, hill, or mountain - climb it, and look around at the horizon. Looks more like a circle than any other shape.
When was Isaiah written, anyway? The Greeks thought the Earth was a sphere more than 400 years before Jesus' birth. By claiming that people back then "would have had no way of knowing," you are selling the intellect of the ancients quite short. The Greeks even knew, roughly, the size of the Earth, not just its general shape. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 08:18:31 [Permalink]
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ivanisavich,
quote:
Although the context of the verse is rather poetic, it is interesting that the earth is referred to as a "circle", as the people of the day would have had no way of knowing the earth was round.
Just a tad bit of food for thought...could mean nothing though.
It actually does mean something, but according to proper translation it can mean one of the following: circle, circuit, compass, or vault (as in vault of the heavens). None of these clearly equate to a sphere, so I think this is quite a bit more of people wanting to read more into the verse than is really there.
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02329&version=kjv
Additionally if you look at the root you find the definition to be
"to encircle, encompass, describe a circle, draw round, make a circle
1. (Qal) to encircle, encompass"
The word that comes closest in the Bible to a sphere is
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01754&version=kjv
As you can see I have already commented on the lack of viability of this verse above. The Isaiah verse does not hold much water, since it refers to a 2D circle and the Hebrew word used can also be interpreted as either a “vault” or a “compass”. - Posted - 02/16/2004 : 09:18:43 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2004 : 14:10:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
Here's an interesting piece of scripture:
quote:
Isaiah 40:22 - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Although the context of the verse is rather poetic, it is interesting that the earth is referred to as a "circle", as the people of the day would have had no way of knowing the earth was round.
Just a tad bit of food for thought...could mean nothing though.
Ok. There are different kinds of "circle"... round as the circle that is the edge of a pancake?
A globe has a surface, but no distinct "circle" if you are standing on that surface. On a globe, tracing the circumference will be an imaginary circle.
If you set up a tent in which to dwell in, you would anchor it to the ground. If you had a globe, and the tent had no place to be anchored to. If you had a world that was round as a pancake, you could attach the tent-canvas to the edge of the circle that is the rim of the pancake.
The verse you quoted make sense if the world was shaped as a pancake, or, the heavens stretched out as a curtain, like a tent to live in kind of makes me think of the experiment called "Biosphere 2". |
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