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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
 Posted - 02/11/2004 : 21:00:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
This 2,000-year-old charge of deicide formed the basis of Christian anti-Semitism and prompted the murder of countless numbers of Jews throughout the centuries. What concerns some religious scholars, culture watchers and Jewish leaders is Gibson's religious point of view: He is a fundamentalist Catholic whose sect rejects the landmark changes in Catholic theology adopted in 1965 by the Second Vatican Council.
One of the most significant of those changes is contained in the Vatican document Nostra Aetate, which officially rejects the concept of the collective responsibility of the Jewish people for Jesus' death. But some fear Gibson's film will revive the deicide charge, as Passion Plays around the world did for centuries, sometimes triggering anti-Jewish mob violence.
Scholars base their concerns on recent comments by Gibson about the movie, which he is directing, co-writing and personally financing, but not appearing in. They also cite recent anti-Semitic remarks by Gibson's father, Hutton, a Holocaust denier who rejects the Vatican's theological reconciliation with Jews.
Hutton Gibson's remarks were contained in a March 9 New York Times Magazine story that also revealed his son's financing of a huge new church in Malibu, Calif., for his breakaway Catholic sect.
- see The ‘Passion' Of Mel Gibson
Three quick points:
1. There is no basis for accepting the historicity of "The Passion"
2. Gibson is a right-wing fundamentalist with an agenda.
3. The stigma "Christ Killer" has long been the rallying cry of antisemitism. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2004 : 22:34:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
And I thought Rome was in Italy?
Ok, I am TOTALLY messed up here. So please forgive my incompitence with Eastern Hemesphere Geogrophy :)
quote:
Creation88, if you are going to maintain that all the Jews in existence 2,000 years ago conspired to kill Jesus
People need to stop with that. I never said a thing about ALL Jews killing Jesus. It was a very few which is partly my point. They should not take it so personaly.
quote:
Um, you're 16 years old. You had no part whatsoever to do with enslaving thousands of Africans. Why should you feel like you would have to "live with it" at all? Have any of your direct ancestors ever owned slaves in America? Lots of Southerners didn't, you know.
Because African-Americans still talk abot us, as if we are the devil at times.
quote:
C88, are you saying that history has no bearing on the present?
Have you missed everything I said in previous posts, and just said this randomly??? All I have said is how the past DOES effect us, but we should not complain about it. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 06:05:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
[quote]You can dis-agree with exactly how things hapened, but almost nobody says that Jesus never exsisted. The facts are to clear to say that he did not.
There was a very good discussion "Did Jesus Exist" a year or so ago about whether jesus ever existed on this board. A very good case was made that jesus was a fiction, a fabulous character from a collection of little books whose authors are mostly annonymous, a composite of other savior gods, an individual who is purported to have said many wonderful things though none of it original. There is no other evidence for his existence. This movie is fictitious just like its main character.
Yes, there are a lot of people who doubt that jesus ever existed. Try searching for the thread mentioned, or pick up a copy of the Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 06:24:57 [Permalink]
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"The past does affect us, but we should not complain about it."
C88, who are you to decide how people should feel about anything at all?
You don't know what it's like to be Jewish. You don't know what it's like to be African-American. Until you do, I think you'd better kindly and fairly refrain from telling other people how to define their life experience and feelings. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 07:45:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
quote:
And I thought Rome was in Italy?
Ok, I am TOTALLY messed up here. So please forgive my incompitence with Eastern Hemesphere Geogrophy :)
quote:
Creation88, if you are going to maintain that all the Jews in existence 2,000 years ago conspired to kill Jesus
People need to stop with that. I never said a thing about ALL Jews killing Jesus. It was a very few which is partly my point. They should not take it so personaly.
As Consequent Atheist points out, Christ Killer has long (like in centuries long) been the rallying cry of antisemitism. You'll have to forgive the Jews for being a bit sensitive about it.
quote:
quote:
Um, you're 16 years old. You had no part whatsoever to do with enslaving thousands of Africans. Why should you feel like you would have to "live with it" at all? Have any of your direct ancestors ever owned slaves in America? Lots of Southerners didn't, you know.
Because African-Americans still talk abot us, as if we are the devil at times.
The Nation of Islam does not speak for all African-Americans. It is also not strictly based on slavery. It is also based on the systemic racist doctorines of government and business owners which perpetuated second class economic and social status to African-Americans up to the early 60's and in some places beyond.
quote:
quote:
C88, are you saying that history has no bearing on the present?
Have you missed everything I said in previous posts, and just said this randomly??? All I have said is how the past DOES effect us, but we should not complain about it.
There is a difference between complaining and ensuring that the mistakes and hatred of the past are not repeated. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 09:11:19 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
People need to stop with that. I never said a thing about ALL Jews killing Jesus. It was a very few which is partly my point. They should not take it so personaly.
I think other people will stop saying that as soon as you stop saying things like, "But I am sick of hearing about how Jews don't want the film released because they feel as if it puts them in a bad light, because they are the ones who killed Christ." Don't you see how you've collectively blamed them all there?quote:
Because African-Americans still talk abot us, as if we are the devil at times.
So what? My direct German ancestors came over to the States prior to World War One, so anyone who might try to pin some of the responsibility for the Holocaust on my shoulders is going to get a fight. I'm not going to "suck it up" because it's possible that some uncle or cousin of mine (several times removed) was in the SS or a concentration camp guard (I don't know if any were).
Actually, considering the way the population has grown, it is the case that the Jews who "killed" Jesus are your own cousins. And everyone else's, as well. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 11:59:33 [Permalink]
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I have read the posts in this site for a couple of days and like the discussion here. I agree with Dave W. but on a spiritual level.
quote:
Actually, considering the way the population has grown, it is the case that the Jews who "killed" Jesus are your own cousins. And everyone else's, as well.
If you do not believe the bible then what other source is there for the answer? If you believe that the bible is Gods word then the answer is in the scriptures.
Jesus death was an act of love and submission on his part for all of us. He could have decided not to do it.
Mat 26:53-54 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" NIV
The reason he had to die was to save humans from sin.
Isaiah 53:6 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." NIV
Jesus agreed to die for us and God made it happen using the Jews and Romans. I believe the answer is we all killed him because of our sin.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 12:35:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
If you do not believe the bible then what other source is there for the answer? If you believe that the bible is Gods word then the answer is in the scriptures.
Well, if I don't believe the bible, I don't, the other source is generally called history. There is little to no evidence for the existence of the Christ as cited by the bible. If there is no Christ, then the Jews aren't killers of the Christ.
quote:
Jesus death was an act of love and submission on his part for all of us. He could have decided not to do it.
Mat 26:53-54 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" NIV
The reason he had to die was to save humans from sin.
Isaiah 53:6 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." NIV
Jesus agreed to die for us and God made it happen using the Jews and Romans. I believe the answer is we all killed him because of our sin.
Your beliefs are your own. But this concept of sin blames the child for the faults of the parents. This is crazy. If my parent commits murder then is that also my fault? You see, you are attempting to blame me for something that biblically happend some 6000 years ago and was decided that it needed to be rectified 2000 years ago. What of those who never heard of this small nomadic group calling themselves Israelites, nor heard of the bible or Jesus, are these folks also at fault for his death? Remember according to the bible the Tower of Babble fell and caused the sundering of all people into separate groups and languages. How can you, or anyone, accuse those that were cast out by your god be blamed for what your god decided needed to be done? This is the problem with the whole guilt trip thing built into the christian religions. You wind up having to define a group to blame. Unfortunately for the jews, it winds up being them.
Personally, I don't think I should be blamed for something that happened 2000 years ago, I didn't have any control or say in the situation. I also have no emotional connection to the belief systems involved.
I'm assuming from your belief in original sin that you have some belief in the literal nature of at least one of the two creation stories in the bible. If this is incorrect please feel free to correct my misinterpretation of your belief structure. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 12:52:03 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote:quote:
I have read the posts in this site for a couple of days and like the discussion here.
Welcome to the SFN! Hope you continue to enjoy the discussions here.quote:
I agree with Dave W. but on a spiritual level.
Yeah, I was, of course, speaking on a completely genetic level - whether the Bible is correct or not. The two people alive today who are the least related are, at worst possible case, 11,500th cousins or so, perhaps hundreds of times removed. (And if the Earth is only 6,000 years old, the worst-case scenario is around 300th cousins.)
Christians and Jews are necessarily related to each other (and every other racial/religious group on the planet). So, if the Jews should just "suck it up" for having "ancestors" who killed Jesus, the Christians should, too.
Ancestors is in quotes, by the way, because I'm curious if any of the Jews who had a hand in allegedly killing Jesus have any direct descendants who are alive today. I don't recall the Bible talking about "the sins of the uncles." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 14:52:41 [Permalink]
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I think it's a moot point since Jesus probably never even existed and the whole story is fragments of other stories pieced together. But Jews are understandably concerned about how they are portrayed in this story because of the reaction of some extremist Christian groups and individuals and at certain times whole societies.
While the movie is just trying to show the story from a different perspective it is not appropriate to say "get over it" as if that's all there is to it and there is only one side. Next year someone may make a film firmly showing that the Romans were 100% at fault and why not? A movie is a movie. This is not a documentary and if Gibson thinks so he is one crazy dude. A director, a good director, will treat the story in such a way that even the most horrible character can be seen sympathetically.
I would have to see the movie first but depending on how Gibson treated the Jews in the movie the Jewish community may have a good case for being offended. Maybe not, but there is a lot more to consider than "getting over it" because this is not "the past" but one artists interpretation.
Think of the various interpretations from the Rodney King beating. That was actual video of an actual event and what people took from that varied quite a bit.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 14:54:38 [Permalink]
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Thanks for your input Trish.
quote:
Well, if I don't believe the bible, I don't, the other source is generally called history. There is little to no evidence for the existence of the Christ as cited by the bible. If there is no Christ, then the Jews aren't killers of the Christ.
The fist question I had was a real one. I don't know of any other sources independent from the bible that supports the existence of Jesus. Let me know if you know of any. What I was trying to say is that if the bible is not true then it seems there is little proof who killed Jesus or that he even existed so there is no point to the discussion.
quote:
This is the problem with the whole guilt trip thing built into the christian religions.
Following Jesus is not about guilt, although some christians teach that. I did not mean to convey that message. It is about being a disciple of Jesus. The New Testament teaches that disciples of Jesus should abide by his teachings out of love for him and others. Our sinful nature led Jesus to die for us so he could save our lives. If a father jumped in front of a gunman's bullet to save his daughters life, is the child to blame for her fathers death? No. The father made a decision based on love for his daughter. This is what Jesus did for all of us. He jumped in front of our sin so we would not meet the consequences of our sin, death.
The bible is silent on why the crucifixion happened when it did. It is a question I do not have an answer to. In addition, about people that never heard of God or Jesus, I also do not have an answer to. I will have to study these questions further.
quote:
I'm assuming from your belief in original sin that you have some belief in the literal nature of at least one of the two creation stories in the bible. If this is incorrect please feel free to correct my misinterpretation of your belief structure.
If you mean that Adam committed the first sin than yes I do and yes, I do believe in the biblical account of creation.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 19:46:47 [Permalink]
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moakley wrote:quote:
There was a very good discussion "Did Jesus Exist" a year or so ago about whether jesus ever existed on this board.
I think Kil and/or @tomic could assure people here that Jesus never existed on this board. 
Seriously, the old "Did Jesus Really Exist" threads are still available. Here are links to Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 and Part 5. If someone wants to start it up again, starting Part 6 would be the way to go. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 20:30:11 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote:quote:
The fist question I had was a real one. I don't know of any other sources independent from the bible that supports the existence of Jesus. Let me know if you know of any.
Some would say Josephus is independent support.quote:
If a father jumped in front of a gunman's bullet to save his daughters life, is the child to blame for her fathers death? No. The father made a decision based on love for his daughter.
Unfortunately, the daughter in such a situation might feel guilt. "If I hadn't been standing there, my dad would still be alive." That sort of thing.quote:
This is what Jesus did for all of us. He jumped in front of our sin so we would not meet the consequences of our sin, death.
And I suspect a lot of Christians believe that their own sins, committed nowadays, do a disservice to Jesus' sacrifice. This would result in feelings of guilt and shame. Jim Bakker's tearful "Lord, I have sinned against you" comes to mind, although how much of that was sincere, I don't know. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 21:33:40 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the link Dave W. You wrote,
quote:
Unfortunately, the daughter in such a situation might feel guilt. "If I hadn't been standing there, my dad would still be alive." That sort of thing.
This is true, but my point was that the bible does not teach us to feel guilty about our sin. Would you agree that the daughter has no reason to feel guily? Is she guilty of her fathers death? The bible teaches us to be free from sin. I agree that we sometimes feel guilt. Consider the following passages:
"For I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more" Heb. 8:12 NIV
and
"I, even, I am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more." Isa. 43:25 NIV
quote:
And I suspect a lot of Christians believe that their own sins, committed nowadays, do a disservice to Jesus' sacrifice. This would result in feelings of guilt and shame. Jim Bakker's tearful "Lord, I have sinned against you" comes to mind, although how much of that was sincere, I don't know.
I agree alot of christians feel guilt, but the bible teaches our sin is no longer held over us. Romans 6 expands on this principle. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 22:22:44 [Permalink]
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I just want to clear up a couple things.
First of all. I am not in any way singleing out Jews. This is just the most relevent to the subject at this point in time. And it happens to be on something I care about deeply. All I am really saying is that, if someone to the best of there ability makes a historic movie.(i know many argue that too) But that if even if it was a ficticious story. That's the way the story went, so don't complain about it.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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