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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 03/08/2004 : 23:52:16
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Many clues lie within the description that Moses gave about the six days of creation. If mixed with wisdom, these clues tell much more about the beginnings of the universe than people realize. This forum is a place for those interested in what the Bible says about Creation. We'll try to note the logic and order as the days of creation proceeded. We can note any contradictions or confirmations with science or logic as we go on. We'll begin our discussion with verse one of Genesis, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." A starter question: Did this verse imply that a physical realm existed before the first day or not?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
Edited by - Doomar on 03/09/2004 00:00:13
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2004 : 11:07:54 [Permalink]
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First Doomar, are we looking at Genesis 1 or 2. Which creation story is correct, since they don't exactly agree with each other? And IIRC the bible calls them creation stories, not facts. How do you have night and day without a planet from which to observe? This implies that the sun can be turned on and off like a light bulb. Well, since we have a fairly firm basis for understanding that the sun can't be turned on and off...
Quit trying to make your version of religion fit reality. Either accept that it doesn't fit and believe despite all evidence to the contrary or accept that science in this matter can not and will not have anything to do with your religion. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
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They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
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Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2004 : 11:13:44 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
A starter question: Did this verse imply that a physical realm existed before the first day or not?
Doesn't look to me like it implies anything about what might (or might not) have existed prior to the first day.
On another note, if "the heavens" means "everything except Earth," Genesis 1:1 certainly doesimply that the Earth should be at most 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 59.999 seconds younger than the oldest object in the universe. If, of course, one considers a Genesis "day" to be 24 hours long. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2004 : 12:02:54 [Permalink]
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I agree that it is interesting to look at the creation mythology of the bible and find hidden clues.
First the creation myth is a variant of earlier creation myths but a single deity spin is put on it. The similarity of the bible creation myth is very closed to some of the earlier myths. The single deity theme is why the sun is refered to as the great light and the moon is refered to as the lesser light. The writers of the bible wanted to ensure that the planets, the sun and the moon were not deified to the point that they were unwilling to even them a name.
Why is seven days so important?
The reason is that the calendar is based on the changing of the seasons which is to say the appearent movement of the celestial bodies. There are 7 celestial bodies that seem to have the power to move against the background of the stars. They are mercury, venus, the moon, the sun, mars, jupiter and saturn. That in and of itself is compelling however there is even more 'power' in the number 7. The early calendars were generally based on the lunar cycles - 13 full moons in a year. A lunar cycle is about 28 days. 7 X 4 = 28, a coincedence? I don't think so. It must have been set up by god (or gods) that way. The year was 13 X 28 or 364 days. OK God wasn't perfect.
The bottom line to the first creation myth is that god created order out of chaos. Look how the bible versus are worded:
D1 Creates light''''''''''''''''''''''''''D4 Creates moon sun stars
D2 Creats sky & water'''''''''''D5 Creates birds & fish
D3 Creates dry land''''''''''''''''D6 Creates land animals & man
D7 God takes a well deserved rest.
These are the 'hidden clues' I get from the bible. I find these ancient writtings very interesting. They give an insight into the working and development of the culture.
I also am fascinated with the evolution of the religion from the Jewish religion to the Christian religion.
Such as the 'invention and development' of the devil over time or the invention and development of heaven and hell overtime.
The early bible had no devil, hell or heaven. Most christians would say that the snake in the garden of eden was the devil. This is absurd, the devil had not been invented yet and the bible clearly states that the snake was the 'craftiest of all of the wild creatures that god had made'.
So anyway the bible is an extremely interesting piece of writting that I always get a kick out of analyzing.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2004 : 21:13:18 [Permalink]
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Ok, y'all. I think we've gotten of to a weak start. This topic is not being discussed to debate the validity of creationism vs. evolutionism. It is to discuss what the creation story reveals. We are not discussing other versions of creation from other religions. We are simply looking at the Bible and what it says. I had a subject about modern evolution vs Darwinism where current evolutionary theory was discussed. This thread is for discussing what the creation story of the Bible shows or doesn't show and whether there are scientific conclusions that can be drawn.
Now, back to Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." I'll leave off the discussion on the starter question and just stick with the facts ("just the facts, Ma'am"). Facts, meaning as related to what is simply written. Whether these facts are true or not is not the debate at this time, just what it says and means within the context. The beginning being discussed seems to imply the beginning of the universe, as we know it. When it says "God created the heavens" that heaven seem to mean the physical space wherein all the planets, stars, and other phenomneum could be placed. On this same day, God made just one planet called earth.
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Gen.1:2 From this description the earth is covered with water and has no particular form, or no mountains that can be seen above the water. God's Spirit is obviously involved in the actual process of creating and forming the earth, maybe like a ball of clay rolled by the artist before he starts forming what he wants.
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." Gen. 1:3-5 God makes the first physical light. Question is, what form was this light in? God divided the light from the darkness. How did this occur and what does this imply? We know that this planet earth must be already spinning on its axis. The definition of a "day" is related specifically to the planet earth as it turned one time on its axis. Day and night are related directly to earth, or experience from earth's perspective. This light that was created had to be a physical light with gas, matter, energy, etc. placed way out in the universe away from earth. It was evidently lighting and heating everything up, except one side of the earth, that remained dark. The earth is spinning, 1/2 is light, 1/2 dark. One revolution occurs and one day of creation is up.
One thought (not just mine, learned it from a pastor)was that this great light way out in the universe was made up of all the matter needed to create every other planet, star, and other phenom of space. In other words, the first day, God made every bit of physcial matter that was needed to form everything else.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2004 : 21:48:58 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
This light that was created had to be a physical light with gas, matter, energy, etc. placed way out in the universe away from earth. It was evidently lighting and heating everything up, except one side of the earth, that remained dark.
One thing: photons don't combine to form atoms (or even subatomic particles). "Gas" and "matter" are not light. And I'm guessing here, but later in Genesis do we find out that God moved all this stuff around to be spread more-or-less evenly?quote:
One thought (not just mine, learned it from a pastor)was that this great light way out in the universe was made up of all the matter needed to create every other planet, star, and other phenom of space. In other words, the first day, God made every bit of physcial matter that was needed to form everything else.
Sheer speculation without Biblical support, given that you've defined 'heavens' as just the physical space for the universe. So much for literalism. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 04:48:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
We'll begin our discussion with verse one of Genesis, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." A starter question: Did this verse imply that a physical realm existed before the first day or not?
It implies that someone or something undefined, created the heavens and the earth, and did so in the beginning. It seems possible to interpret this as "the earth was created immediately after the universe was created", but that depends on what the "heavens" were. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 08:56:03 [Permalink]
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The writtings in genesis indicate that a group of people with no idea of the vastness of the universe or even any idea of the size of the earth, made up a story based on earlier creation stories, of the origin of the earth.
quote:
When it says "God created the heavens" that heaven seem to mean the physical space wherein all the planets, stars, and other phenomneum could be placed. On this same day, God made just one planet called earth.
Of course, the writers of the bible thought of the heavens as that big tarp in the sky with the dots of light on it. The sun and the moon were some light sources that was put in the heavens for us. There clearly was no inkling of a recognition of the vastness of the universe. And why should there be - these people had no scientific understanding nor the tools to understand science.
quote:
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
This is again people who when they think of the origin of the earth they cannot conceive of the condensation of a gas cloud billions of years ago to form our solar system. The 'waters' is an allusion to chaos and even evil.
quote:
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." Gen. 1:3-5 God makes the first physical light. Question is, what form was this light in?
This seems to indicate a lack of understanding of the basic properties of light. Dividing the light from the darkness makes no sense at all. Visible light is simply some specific wavelengths of E-M radiation. You can't divide light from darkness. They are simply trying to explain why there is a day and night cycle, without any understanding that the planet is a rotating sphere.
Trying to look at genesis and somehow relate to the actual formation of the universe or the begining of the earth is futile. Genesis talks of a worldwide flood which clearly did not happen, it talks of people living for 900 years and talks of giants. The story is clearly a myth the truth is in the understanding of human nature and the teaching of right and wrong.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2004 : 10:37:31 [Permalink]
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Doomar,
I wanted to know which genesis story you were looking at chapters 1 or 2. Since you say one, I'll operate on the assumption that man and woman were created on the same day. Since, that's the way this particular story reads, the other one in chapter 2 says they were created on different days and that woman comes from man.
I still don't like the idea that the sun was turned off and on like a light bulb, I pretty sure fusion doesn't work that way. As to the nature of light, it is both a wave and a particle. Here's a good sight that explains the dual nature of light http://www.thespectroscopynet.com/Educational/wave_particle_duality.htm
Doomar, there was no understanding by the nomads that told these stories of how things really work. They weren't even close for the most part. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 02:31:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
As stated before, light is E-M radiation. It is known that all bodies warmer than absolute zero emits heat according to Stefan-Boltzmann's Law, or Plank's Law of Electro-Magnetic Emission[1]. That means that the only circumstance where the earth could have been completely out of light is at absolute zero.
This suggests that the author of Genesis had no clue about the intimate connection between heat and light.
quote:
This light that was created had to be a physical light with gas, matter, energy, etc. placed way out in the universe away from earth.
If it is "way out in the universe" then it has to take some time to get here. If you placed a star outside the solar system, just beyond the Oort-cloud, the light from it wouldn't have time to reach Earth in time for the evening.
This also shows that the author of Genesis had no clue about the speed property of light. They assumed that it was infinite, when in fact it is quite limited. Lots of observable phenomenons points to light from distant quazars are indeed several billion years old.
quote:
It was evidently lighting and heating everything up, except one side of the earth, that remained dark. The earth is spinning, 1/2 is light, 1/2 dark. One revolution occurs and one day of creation is up.
One thought (not just mine, learned it from a pastor)was that this great light way out in the universe was made up of all the matter needed to create every other planet, star, and other phenom of space. In other words, the first day, God made every bit of physcial matter that was needed to form everything else.
If that was the explanation, then why doesn't Genesis read something like:
"And God created the sun, and the next day God did take pieces of the Sun and scattered Them across the heavens, and called Them stars."
The Bible doesn't say anything about God creating other planets. Does that mean that all planets are stars?
[1] I don't know the actual names of the laws in English, I had to translate them from my Swedish Physics Formula Compedium. |
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moolmogo
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 03:05:21 [Permalink]
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maybe the light has something to do with Jesus.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Jhn 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 06:45:31 [Permalink]
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Mologoomonooono said:
quote:
maybe the light has something to do with Jesus.
I can agree with that. That is the context with which genesis should be understood. Not that creation took 7 - 24 hour days or that light was created without a source or an actual world wide flood occurred. Genesis should be understood as being written metaphorically. Genesis is not a record of physical creation, it is a mythological story that descripes the Jewish peoples relationship with their God.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
| Edited by - furshur on 03/12/2004 19:04:20 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 22:20:47 [Permalink]
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The idea that the account of creation written by Moses was metaphorical is just so much horse pucky. This same Moses led the children of Israel out of Eqypt, during which many great miracles were done by God to persuade Pharaoh to let the Israelites go, and Moses was used directly to tell Pharaoh what was about to happen. It was Moses who lifted his rod and saw God part an entire sea to make a way for about 2 million Israelites to cross. The same sea closed on the persuing army. This is the Moses that heard God speak the ten commandment directly to the people, then went up the mountain and received the ten commandments written in stone by God's hand, the same man who saw the back side of God on the mountain, whose face shown so brightly afterwards that he put on a veil to not scare the people. This Moses talked with God for 40 days up on that mountain. This was most likely the place God revealed to him how He created the earth, so he'd write it down for posterity. No, the creation account is a literal account of how the world and universe began. That is what most Biblical scholars believe and that is how we are looking at it in this thread.
The light that was first created was physical light shining from a fixed point. It was replaced on the forth day by the sun, moon, and stars, which, I suppose were made from the substance of this great light. This original light had to be at a great distance from the earth, much farther than our present sun. It gave off light and heat immediately to the earth, as we read how plant life started on the third day and we know they need light and heat. Were this light mass so huge and massive as to be the substance of all the stars and planets (my supposition), the laws of light/radiation travel, if constant, would mean that God made the mass of light to instantly light and heat the earth, meaning by His omnipotence, caused such to occur that way. In much the same way He brought forth plant life and animal life, not requiring the natural passing of time as all such life requires today. The old addage about which came first, the chicken or the egg, is pretty much solved in the creation account, but we're getting ahead of ourselves.
The second day God made the atmosphere around the earth to prepare for all life forms. "6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
The third day is pretty self-explanatory, but suffice it to say, He shaped the entire planet and then made all vegetable life, preparing food for his next creation. "9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13And the evening and the morning were the third day."
The next day is pretty amazing stuff, "14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day." Here is a real mystery for us. Why did the account tell of a great light made the first day of creation, but this was not when the sun was made? Why wouldn't Moses have just said the sun was made on such and such a day and be done with it? Moses, after all, was not there and had no clue. Nobody had a clue before this, it seems. But here is Moses, telling about a great light being formed the first day. Now surely this was symbolic, but we're not discussing that, rather the physical description of what happened given by Moses. Don't any of you think it strange that Moses would describe this great first light, but it not be the sun? Now I find it extremely amazing. If Moses were a smart guy, making up a religion, why would he go out on such a limb? Because he was just describing what God told him, or showed him. I do think God put the sun and moon and stars in the sky before any creature with a brain was made. Don't think it's too hard to figure out why.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 03/22/2004 22:25:21 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 22:42:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar:
The idea that the account of creation written by Moses was metaphorical is just so much horse pucky.
This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:
"There is no god, and Moses was his prophet." |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 00:26:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Doomar:
The idea that the account of creation written by Moses was metaphorical is just so much horse pucky.
This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:
"There is no god, and Moses was his prophet."
This "no god" sure did a lot of unexplainable things for Moses. Either that, or Moses had a whole lot of power for a mere man, or Moses was just the luckiest man ever to hit the plantet. Consider his perfect timing in Eqypt when he decided to get his couple million relatives out of slavery. Just at that time, the ten worst plagues ever to hit man occurred, and Moses walked through a normally wet and deep sea a few miles with a couple million other people and the "unlucky" bunch of soldiers persuing them to bring them back as slaves just happened to drown in the same sea along the same path. Then their was that extremely lucky break when he found water for the 2 million folk by hitting a rock. Then that lucky streak of 40 years when the children of Israel found little seeds on the ground they called "manna" to make food up till the day they crossed the Red sea, normally wet, on dry ground. Then there was that really unlucky day when Korah and his friends had an argument with Moses and found themselves burnt alive and fallen into an instant earthquake. Just plain horrible luck for them. And then their was that really unlucky trip he had up on the mountain when he forgot to bring food for forty days and when he got down he had contracted some form of shining disease where his face glowed. He said he'd been with God, but surely nobody really believed it. It had to be some radioactive rock or something. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 09:08:25 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
This "no god" sure did a lot of unexplainable things for Moses.
Is there any contemporary evidence outside the Old Testament that any of those things actually happened? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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