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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2004 : 21:59:30 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
I have been reading them, but I must admit to confusion, as there are several beliefs about evolution and especially the beginning of life arguments which seem to be put into another category from evolution. I've yet to hear a clear definition of the origin of life theory believed by most evolutionists.
That's because evolution and abiogensis (the origin of life) are two distinct disciplines. Evolution doesn't depend on any single theory with regards to the origin of life, it simply tells us what's happened since life came about. There are several plausible hypotheses about abiogenesis floating around these days. Evolutionary research can safely ignore all of them until one or another "comes of age," at which time they'll be mixed into a "Theory of Life" or some such thing.
The idea that the theory of evolution depends entirely on a naturalistic origin of life is another lie promoted by creationists, typically the "old Earth" creationists. "You can't know that life began without God," they say, "therefore evolution is a guess!" But since abiogenesis and evolution are two separate things, it's sort of like saying, "that Chevrolet is white, therefore this pizza tastes good!"
Likewise, the "evolution" of the universe is a wholly different discipline than either the evolution of living things or abiogenesis, but some creationists like to confuse the issues even further by claiming that since the Big Bang theory is unprovable, then evolution must be false.quote:
From my reading of Darwin, he allowed for God's creation, yet only a few simplistic species of life. At that time he did not realize the immense complexity of each life form, as we do today, else he might of abandoned his theories altogether.
Why would he have done that? The "immense complexity" of current life forms has little bearing on what life might have been like at the start. Darwin was wholly unaware of self-replicating molecules, or even the mechanisms through which heritable characteristics are passed from parents to children. I believe he was fully aware of his lack of knowledge on these sorts of subjects, but falling back to "God must be doing it" would probably have been unacceptable to him.quote:
By the way, Christian misinformation about evolution? How 'bout evolutionist misinformation about evolutionary theory?
Way to dodge that bullet. Why don't you point out some "evolutionist misinformation about evolutionary theory?" Odds are, it'll actually be Creationist misinterpretations of evolutionary theory "reported" as supposedly coming from evolutionary researchers verbatim, when in reality, it'll be something taken out of context, or a bizarre misunderstanding, or wholly fabricated. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 19:21:54 [Permalink]
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Yes, there is some misinformation about the ToE floating around, quite a bit of it, in fact. Piltdown Man comes readily to mind -- a hoax -- Nebraska Man -- a soon corrected mistake -- the Cardiff Giant -- another hoax, sillier than most, and various, faked and intentionally misinterperated fossils and artifacts put forth by people trying to turn a buck. And so forth ad nauseaum.
Virtually all of these have been corrected and debunked by professional scientists (I will provide links, if desired). Yet, we still see them touted as proofs against evolution amongst strident accusations of scientific dishonesty. It has become a very dull scene.
You can alter facts and use facts out of context, but you cannot change facts, only discover new ones.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Arcanix_X
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 11:19:22 [Permalink]
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| It's amazing how so many people simply believe that book! What is wrong here? Should i go write a book about a Rabbit prophesising his god WHATEVERHISNAMEIS? Maybe in a thousand years i'll get billions of people worshiping. Shish, humans are so gullible. THE BIBLE IS A BOOK AND NOTHING MORE THEN A BOOK. |
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bartink
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 14:11:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
You can alter facts and use facts out of context, but you cannot change facts, only discover new ones.
There are no facts. Everything is filtered through different experiences. Not even sure what a fact is.
I believe that evolution is the reigning scientific paradigm, since it explains how organisms change over time, etc.
As far as biogenesis, I have yet to see a plausible scenario that accounts for life from no life. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but at this point, God is as good an explanation as what science has come up with.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 19:35:04 [Permalink]
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"As far as biogenesis, I have yet to see a plausible scenario that accounts for life from no life. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but at this point, God is as good an explanation as what science has come up with."
Society has always credited god(s) to doing what they didn't know. The Romans (as well as so many other cultures) believed that when the gods were angry, they created storms, and when they were happy, they made good weather. Of course, we now know that this is not the case, we know of weather patterns, high and low pressure, etc.
It is so easy to credit an answer that you really don't know to a god(s). However, "I don't know" is not only an answer, but its a correct one. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 19:41:12 [Permalink]
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bartink wrote:quote:
There are no facts. Everything is filtered through different experiences. Not even sure what a fact is.
Well, why not question the existence of the world, then? Really, once you get down to questioning facts based upon "experiential filters," you may as well take that final step into solipsism. This message board is nothing but a figment of your imagination.
Actually, your statement that "Everything is filtered through different experiences" is a statement of fact. You seem to state it as an axiom upon which to build an argument, and not as a conclusion which might be argued against. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 23:57:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bartink
There are no facts. Everything is filtered through different experiences. Not even sure what a fact is.
I dare you to start believing that a tree isn't a fact. If you've succeeded, please let me know. I'll be happy to witness you running through it. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Pandora
New Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 15:58:59 [Permalink]
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I'm new to this forum and don't know how to reply to a specific post. Whoever thinks the Genesis story was written metaphorically doesn't understand Christianity. Believers need the literal Adam and Eve episode in particular or the entire theology falls apart. Without original sin,what would be the justification for Jesus's passionate demise?  |
"If there were a god, then science would be meaningless" -- me. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 16:03:23 [Permalink]
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Hi Pandora, welcome to the skeptic friends network.
I don't see the need for 'original sin' as a justification to Jesus's demise. Why would plain inbred human badness not be a good justification? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 17:06:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I'm new to this forum and don't know how to reply to a specific post. Whoever thinks the Genesis story was written metaphorically doesn't understand Christianity. Believers need the literal Adam and Eve episode in particular or the entire theology falls apart. Without original sin,what would be the justification for Jesus's passionate demise?
Precisely! The Adam and Eve-story is important as a background setup for the story about Jesus. Though fictional, the Bible do address important aspects of the human condition. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 22:35:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Precisely! The Adam and Eve-story is important as a background setup for the story about Jesus. Though fictional, the Bible do address important aspects of the human condition.
Why? I still don't see the need for it. As far as I see it, in both cases (either original sin or sin which originated some other way) mankind is not able to fulfill the commandments given by God and needs an 'escape'. In what way is the Adam and Eve-story important? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 06:42:21 [Permalink]
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| While it was allegedly through Adam and Eve (well, sexistly, just Eve) that sin entered the world, much of the rest of Genesis can and should be taken metaphorically. Whether it was six literal days or 15 billion years of creation doesn't make one bit of difference to the alleged sacrifice of Jesus, which is, supposedly, the important part of all the stories. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2004 : 23:43:46 [Permalink]
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All of you proof what the universe would be like if God wasn't in complete control and His beings did not follow his Laws!!!!
Utter Chaos!
It takes more faith to believe in Evloution than it takes to believe in a supreme Being that created you to exist!!! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 11:10:17 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
All of you proof what the universe would be like if God wasn't in complete control and His beings did not follow his Laws!!!!
Utter Chaos!
Prove it. Your say-so doesn't make it true. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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