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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 03/17/2004 : 11:53:09 [Permalink]
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| Real truth will not come out of any presidential debate. Never has, Never will. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 11:58:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh good! Let's blame Filthy. What a trouble maker.
Thankee, thankee, I thankee kindly. Yer a wonderful crowd and I loves ya!
As I've stated before, Kerry is not my first choice, either. But I can live with him a lot better than I can live with Bush. And in a way, this is not good. That sort of thinking hurts third party prospects, even in the long view. If a vote for, oh, say, Nader (not now, not ever!) is an automatic vote for the incumbent, what is the point of voting for someone outside the main stream?
I'm not sure to the degree, but I too, think there is a growing dissention in the Republican ranks. Real conservitives are getting upset at the rate the government is, like a toxic amoeba, expanding, and the way Bush is spending without regard for the staggering debt we are accumulating. Even some few of the religious right are beginning to grumble that he's not taking a firm enough stand on abortion.
Social security: I've been on SS Disability since the late 90's. Without it and the small compensation from the VA (50%) I'd be another cripple living in a cardboard box. Once solvent, this program is now on it's way down the tubes. I too, used to bitch about having to pay into it, but it's a program that works, as I've discovered first hand.
I'd like to see a debate on Social Security.
I'd like to see a debate on the reckless way this Hindenburg of an administration has blown a balanced budget and squandered a comfortable surplus.
I'd like to see a good, mano a mano on the reasons we went to Iraq and, after a lot of bombing accomplishing little beyond wrecking the country, virtually ignored Afganistan to the point that they are now producing opium by the multi-ton and the warlords are all but back in power, with no bin Laden to show for it.
I'd further like to know something certain about what the hell is going down in Hati. And will Baby Doc ultimatly return with Bush support (he's made noises that he might return, and it wouldn't suprise me)?
The topics for debate are endless. I think Kerry made the challenge knowing that Bush would ignore it. It makes him look agressive (which he seems to be). I myself will be mildly suprised if there is even one debate between them. Tha administration knows that, with any kind of honest moderation, Junior would be filleted like a mullet on any topic.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 12:11:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Real truth will not come out of any presidential debate. Never has, Never will.
Robb, you are correct. However, debates serve to give us a pretty good look at the candidates; gives us a chance to observe them without a commercial news filter or carefully prepared remarks.
And once in a while, one of them will show his true colors, for good or ill. Those moments are priceless.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 13:29:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18052
"The case of Jane Fonda reveals the double standards and hypocrisies afflicting our memories. In Tour of Duty, the Kerry historian Douglas Brinkley describes the 1971 winter soldier investigation, which Fonda supported and Kerry attended, where Vietnam veterans spilled their guts about "killing gooks for sport, sadistically torturing captured VC by cutting off ears and heads, raping women and burning villages." Brinkley then recounts how Kerry later told Meet the Press that "I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others," specifically taking responsibility for shooting in free-fire zones, search-and-destroy missions, and burning villages. Brinkley describes these testimonies in tepid and judicious terms, calling them "quite unsettling." By contrast, Brinkley condemns Fonda's 1972 visit to Hanoi as "unconscionable," without feeling any need for further explanation.
Why should American atrocities be merely unsettling, but a trip to Hanoi unconscionable? "
And, from the same article by Tom Hayden:
"It will be easier, I am afraid, for those Americans to believe that Jane Fonda helped torture our POWs than to accept the testimony by American GIs that they sliced ears, burned hooches, raped women and poisoned Vietnam's children with deadly chemicals. Just two years ago many of the same people in Georgia voted out of office a Vietnam War triple-amputee, Senator Max Cleland, for being "soft on national defense."
If there is any cure for this mouth-foaming mass pathology in a democracy, it may lie at the heart of John Kerry's campaign for the presidency. Rather than distance ourselves from the past, as the centrist amnesiacs would counsel, perhaps we should finally peel back the scabs and take a closer look at why all the wounds haven't healed. The most meaningful experience of John Kerry's life was the time he spent fighting and killing in Vietnam and then turning around to protest the insanity of it all. Instead of wrapping himself in fabrications, he threw his fantasies and delusions, and metaphorically his militarism, over the White House fence. That's what many more Americans need to do."
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 13:31:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Social security: I've been on SS Disability since the late 90's. Without it and the small compensation from the VA (50%) I'd be another cripple living in a cardboard box. Once solvent, this program is now on it's way down the tubes. I too, used to bitch about having to pay into it, but it's a program that works, as I've discovered first hand.
Just wanted to let you know Filthy, that I have no problem with the type of SS you are on. I too have had 1st hand contact with a couple of other forms of SS which are not the main product of SS. They just happen to be under the same administration. Insurance for disability is not a bad thing, that's what it's there for.
My concern is that we have so many restrictions with the retirment funds. I think people expect that it will be there when they no longer can work so they don't make an effort to save on their own. Those who do though, are penalized for trying to plan for the future on their own. My suggestion would be to teach kids at an early age to invest/save or otherwise budget their finances so they are prepared. If the government didn't take MY money and give too little in return I could have a better chance to be more comfortable in later years. That idiotic capital gain on stock really hurt. It was meant to 'tax the rich'. Bull! Everyone selling a stock had to pay, the little guy, like me, too. How does that help the country when people are afraid to or can't invest? Then only the rich really do get the advantage.
'They' the democrats, but all polititions too, want to keep people down and dependant. Education is the answer but they don't want people to know or be able to help themselves.
That's my grip about SS. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 06:40:33 [Permalink]
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The trouble is that millions of us will have paid into Social Security most of our lives who will likely get NOTHING when we retire. That is, IF we retire. My retirement age has been bumped to 75. I imagine I won't EVER be able to retire, and I'll be one of those ladies with the glitter hats that hands out sausage samples at the grocery store when I'm 80.  And then, around 85, I'll get so sick I can't work, and then I'll be summarily dumped onto the street.
Seriously. The safety nets for the poor, sick, and elderly are being unraveled by the Bush administration. He is redefining government as "by the corporations and for the corporations"--Dubya has completely lost sight of the concept of "common good." We need public dialogue on this issue.
We desperately need to include, in the debates, Dubya's assault on science. He allows political ideology to trump science--even health care science, which particularly rankles me. It's frightening, because if we can't trust our scientists to tell us the truth about abortion and breast cancer, or global warming, or mercury in our environment....who CAN we trust? |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 11:55:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
It's frightening, because if we can't trust our scientists to tell us the truth about abortion and breast cancer, or global warming, or mercury in our environment....who CAN we trust?
Why are scientists any more trustworthy than anyone else? Scientists have a political ideology like everyone else. I can find legitimate scientists that will disagree an any issue. This may not mean that they are lying, but scientists are not in agreement an all issues.
I would like to know which foreign leaders Kerry is talking to and what he is telling them. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 13:13:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
...I did what I could to compromise and vote for a Democrat. The only qualified Democrat that's still running is Kucinich. The rest have either conceded or they're Republicans...
Well its an imperfect world. Kerry offers the only chance to oust Bush. There is also the possibility that Kerry's administration could offer an appointment to Kucinich, or Dean, or Nader, or they would at least have an input. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 15:34:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
There is also the possibility that Kerry's administration could offer an appointment to Kucinich, or Dean, or Nader, or they would at least have an input.
Oh, Holly Shit! Kucinich......Nader??? Making disicssions for the country..YIKES.
Boy, am I glad that my business partner changed from democrat to republican.
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www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 16:37:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Seriously. The safety nets for the poor, sick, and elderly are being unraveled by the Bush administration. He is redefining government as "by the corporations and for the corporations"--Dubya has completely lost sight of the concept of "common good." We need public dialogue on this issue.
Holly krist! "by the corporations and for the corporations"
What is it with people being against 'big business'. What about The Company Store or Company Towns? Or Kaiser? Corporations are not evil.
Yes, we do need to talk about the public good and bring out facts, not emotions.
BTW, are there so many poor, sick and elderly that need ALL that care? Some of them should have been saving or had insurance for their futures. And to help the others, there should be and had been more abortions. The problems don't start when people get sick or old.
There are no guarentees in life and the government is not Big Daddy just as it shouldn't be Big Brother. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 19:09:32 [Permalink]
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Glad someone supports extreme criminal behavior? How can you be glad anyone is a Republican in this day and age?
These people are so far to the right that middle of the road Democrats like Kucinich and Nader seem like they're on the left.
quote:
[Oh, Holly Shit! Kucinich......Nader??? Making disicssions for the country..YIKES.
Boy, am I glad that my business partner changed from democrat to republican.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 03/18/2004 19:10:20 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 19:17:17 [Permalink]
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Well, not likely, but we will see, we will see. Checking out Kerry's web site I see nothing about stopping the drug war, nothing about ending the death penalty, nothing about reducing the obscene "defense" department budget. Nothing against the recent attack on Haiti.
This is a right-wing Republican running against a near nazi.
quote:
Well its an imperfect world. Kerry offers the only chance to oust Bush. There is also the possibility that Kerry's administration could offer an appointment to Kucinich, or Dean, or Nader, or they would at least have an input.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 19:25:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
Kucinich......Nader??? Making disicssions for the country..YIKES.
Boy, am I glad that my business partner changed from democrat to republican.
Right. Those guys overlook the really important-to-Republicans issues: like a Constitutional amendment preventing gays from getting married (so they won't in turn "force" Republican families into homosexuality,) or canceling space science programs so we can send men to Mars - - - someday - - - maybe --- later, or appearing to offer prescription drug price incentives to the elderly - i.e. price incentives to the major drug manufacturers.) 
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 21:59:28 [Permalink]
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Robb, a good scientist doesn't let his political ideology trump his commitment to objective science. Period.
If you don't believe me that Bush is bullying the scientific world, I can give you some examples and links. But you can research this yourself.
One example: The Bush administration kowtowing to the religious right's backward thinking on sex education by changing educational materials to favor abstinence--and supporting abstinence-only sex ed when in fact, the science favors a different approach. Some of the scientific material on condoms, for example (already well-established science) has been trashed in favor of the idea that "condoms aren't 100% effective." Well....DUH. Nothing is 100% effective against anything, ferchrissake.
Woody, I don't hate corporations. I hate that corporations behave immorally, and I believe that MY government should protect ME and not corporations. The Bush administration is the most bought-and-sold one in recent history. It's frightening. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 22:48:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
Kucinich......Nader??? Making disicssions for the country..YIKES.
Boy, am I glad that my business partner changed from democrat to republican.
Right. Those guys overlook the really important-to-Republicans issues: like a Constitutional amendment preventing gays from getting married (so they won't in turn "force" Republican families into homosexuality,) or canceling space science programs so we can send men to Mars - - - someday - - - maybe --- later, or appearing to offer prescription drug price incentives to the elderly - i.e. price incentives to the major drug manufacturers.)
The gay issue as you phrased it is scare tactics. That's a states right issue. There has been progress and I believe in time (like so many other social concerns) people will not fear, or condemn 'gays'. Besides, from what I hear, many of them are in the upper middle class, and people think those with money have more say in government. They'll be ok.
Yes, well, the Medicare program for drugs is a joke and having needed medication a serious problem. I take drugs and am worried too. But business has to cover their costs. This is a complicated situation. I don't think we can blame the pharmicutical manufacturers completely, that they are making huge profits at consumer expense. What about all the phoney law suits? Those stupid women who thought they were being made sick from breast implants. Blame the public sometime, they cause the problems too. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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