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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 05/18/2004 : 11:55:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Ok so you have 400 million years to evole to a Giant tree in Califorinia. You mean to tell me that only in the last 3000 years did some lucky tree live to be 3500 years old!!! I'm saying that the tree rings tell volumes and they flow with Creation from God. I give you facts, and you say well that doesn't tell me anything.
Hi verlch. Glad you see we're making some progress here. Tank you for explaining in a bit more detail what the point of your argument is. In an earlier post you suggested that you may want to present this argument in a book or article and asked how you'd go about doing it. You've done the hard part, which is to formulate the hypothesis. In this case, it's that if the earth really were old, and if trees really did live to be over 4 thousand years (or whateve), then we could expect to have lots of examples of petrified wood being really, really old.
The next step you need to take is to back up the logic of your hypothesis. For instance, as others have already observed, when does current evolutionary theory propose that trees began to appear? It doesn't matter if you think they are wrong. Indeed, the point is to use the material they have already stated against them! You also need to ask how long trees usually live. What kinds of trees live to be 4000 years old? When do they appear (or ones similar)? Finally, as Dave W has shown, you need to be a bit more convincing in suggesting just how many petrified trees of any age we should expect to find. Dave W has suggested that in fact we would expect lots of trees if there were some sort of gigantic flood (among other things). That's a problem for you. In order to convince him (and us), you're going to have to look into what it takes to petrify a tree, and how common that is.
Once you get that information together, it should be an easy task to look at the data and see if it conforms to your hypothesis.
As always, it's not developing the idea that's the hard part. It's getting the data together that takes so much effort.
And remember: it's OK to delve into this question only to find out that your hypothesis was wrong. Or at least that there aren't enough data (it's a plural!) to test the idea. But honest people will, after enough setbacks, begin to wonder if their understanding is wrong, and begin to explore better, superior explanations.
A few last notes...
quote:
What is the purpose of trying to explain life without a God? Other than the fact that you believe His laws are way too tough to follow. I think evolution leads people away from the true maker of the universe, bottom line. That is why you have so many people attacking you.
This is entirely unfair and uncalled for. Who are you to say that my not being a Christian is because I think "His laws are too tough to follow"? Screw you. I was a Christian until I started looking closely at that sham of a book you call the Bible and realizing that it's nothing more than the myths, laws, and ideologies of a minor political state that existed in Southwest Asia some 2,500 years ago. I'd be a fool to worship Assyrian or Babylonian gods and follow their patriarchal laws, so why do the same for the Israelite god(s)?
quote:
You tell Men and Women that the come from nothing. They are void of any accountabilty in thier lives. The bible has clear outlines as to how women should treat the husband. I for one have had a terrible time with married life, twice, with woman that believed in evolution. Like wives be submissive to the husband. There are plenty of things.
This is classic Christian. If only that woman would just do as I'd say-- like it says she should to in the Bible-- I'd have a happy marraige. All you need to do, verlch, is find some brain-washed Christian (redundant, I know) who'll act like a slave, and you're set.
I'm not married, but I seen to be having a nice time with my godless, free-thinking girlfriend (except when she won't let me play poker on Saturday with the guys-- perhaps I should find a Christian woman who knows her place...) |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 12:02:29 [Permalink]
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I hate to get into this strange tree thing, but I can only find 3 species of trees that can exceed 3000 years in age. A typical maximum age of trees is much less than 1000 years.
Of course all of this has nothing to do with the age of the earth anyway.
Velch's smooth and romantic nature got me thinking - I recall reading that Fundies have one of the higher divorce rates. Does anyone have any info on that? |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 12:10:34 [Permalink]
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Trees fossiize easily? Well, I dunno. There is a small tree that the resins of which will get you very quickly stoned. Might that count?
quote:
Oh, well, if the Flood happened, there should indeed be lots of fossilized trees all over the world. I don't believe that the Flood happened, though, and I point to the lack of fossilized trees globally as evidence that such a global flood did not occur. Thank you.
I like that argument. With your permiswion, I'd like to use it. I might take it to TWeb and enhance Sarfati's blood pressure, inspiring him to new higths of silliness. 
Ah, probably not. I've found that there's small reward in talking to him. All you end up getting is a lot of frothing ad hom amongst the desperate apologetics. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 19:16:26 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist, thanks for putting my words in a slightly different light. I was rushed. Thanks also for showing that your calm and cool exterior facade can crack a bit, when you let it. 
furshur wrote:quote:
I hate to get into this strange tree thing, but I can only find 3 species of trees that can exceed 3000 years in age. A typical maximum age of trees is much less than 1000 years.
Besides bristlecone pines, what are the other two species? And does this include the monsterous apsen stands everyone heard so much about a few years back (only to be beaten out by a mushroom as "world's largest organism" - ptooie!).quote:
Velch's smooth and romantic nature got me thinking - I recall reading that Fundies have one of the higher divorce rates. Does anyone have any info on that?
The only thing I've heard is that Protestant ministers have the same divorce rate as everyone else (in the U.S.), though I wouldn't be surprised, given the conflicting tales told by mass media and the Bible, that lots of fundamentalist women are throwing off that subservience nonsense. Even my mother-in-law, a God-fearing lady, admits that she's talked in church.
filthy schmoozed:quote:
I like that argument. With your permiswion, I'd like to use it. I might take it to TWeb and enhance Sarfati's blood pressure, inspiring him to new higths of silliness.
I'd love for you to use it, but since I wrote it, I've been wondering how correct it is. I think a little research is in order, to determine the overall ratio of "square miles of fossilized tree pollen" to "square miles of fossilized trees" in many places in the world. That when people talk about fossilized trees, they bring up Yellowstone, the Painted Desert, Joggins, and Patagonia - and not really any other places - is a damn good hint that the forests far outnumbered the fossils, but for all I know, my condo is built over top of fossilized trees. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 03:30:33 [Permalink]
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As virtually all fossilized trees come to light through erosion, it's impossible to say how many and where they are. But it is reasonable to speculate upon how the fossils from a violent, global flood, as described, might likely be laid out.
I think that they would be a pile of jackstraws with representitive bones of many animal species mixed in. A fully articulated skeleton, very rare to start with, would be nonexistant due to the joints being ripped apart and the bones scattered.
And I think that there would be a lot of them, as, when the waters receded, the land would have been covered with a layer of noxious mud of varying thickness. Due to this last, everything would not have become mineralized, but there would be a multitude of pockets of fossils containing everything from trees and dinos to people and aardvarks, with no order whatever.
The thought of excavating one of those pockets sorta makes me wish it actually had happened.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 05:48:10 [Permalink]
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Dave, here is a link to the current records for oldest trees. These are based on core samples of individual trees so aspen stands or sagebrush stands and the like wouldn't be in there.
http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 06:34:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
... but there would be a multitude of pockets of fossils containing everything from trees and dinos to people and aardvarks, with no order whatever.
Right-- this is the key to the fact of evolution, and very important for proposing how it works. It is exactly because human remains aren't mixed in with dinosaurs, or trilobites, or whatever that we must rule out these remains happening as a result of a massive flood. The evidence is not consistant with a flood.
Instead, verlch (if you're reading), the evidence shows clearly that animals appear at different times and become extinct at later times. There is a change in the diversity of life over time. This is evolution, and not creation.
----
P.S. What's amazing, Dave W, about losing my cool is that I wasn't even drunk! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 10:04:30 [Permalink]
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furshur: thanks. This gives us another data point, as well. If the oldest known tree (cut down in 1965) was 4,844 years old, then (remembering that there was no year zero) it sprouted in 2,878 B.C. Given that Biblical dating tells us the Flood allegedly occured in 2,348 BC, this tree was already 530 years old when the Flood occured, and should have been destroyed with the rest of 'em. Methusela, another bristlecone pine, was only a little younger than that (geologically speaking) when the Flood supposedly happened (no year given for the dating).
Any tree currently aged more than 4,352 years will have sprouted prior to the Flood. Any fossilized tree older than 1,656 years either survived the Flood, or is an example of God lying and playing tricks (as verlch suggested: God made 'em look older than they actually were).
Perhaps verlch would like to address these problems with a literal interpretation of the Bible, without either "explaining them away" or ignoring them? After all, he should hold himself to the same standard to which he'd like us to conform (and which, so far as I can tell, we have).
Cuneiformist: I get more angry when sober than when drunk. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 12:46:36 [Permalink]
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What just because it is 2004 the bible somehow changed....If being equal to women meant a happy life than fine. I have noticed that it doesn't. God said his word never changes, he is the Alphan and Omega, the beginning and end.
Your theory gets in the way. Women speak just like you did, what that was written 2000-4000 years ago, yeah that is just about what 60 generations?
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What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 13:34:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
What just because it is 2004 the bible somehow changed....If being equal to women meant a happy life than fine. I have noticed that it doesn't. God said his word never changes, he is the Alphan and Omega, the beginning and end.
Your theory gets in the way. Women speak just like you did, what that was written 2000-4000 years ago, yeah that is just about what 60 generations?
Verlch, get over your women! I'd say that whether the bible did not change in the last 2004 years is highly questionable to say the least, and most probably incorrect. But that the interpretation of the bible by most christians changed in this time is definitely true, and one of the interpretations that changed the most is on the position on women. Even the most conservative christians which I have spoken with often showed more respect to women than you do now.
I'm very sorry that your relationships with women up to now were not very positive, but that does not have anything to do with the topic which you are adressing now.
Also, have you ever done some soulsearching about why both relationships did not work? Could it be possible that they did not work because you expected women to be submissive? In that case, your relationship did not work out because of your expectations, not because they did something wrong in particular.
I have found that in cases were relationships did not work out, I always bore part of the blame. Your in a relationship together, Verlch, not by yourself, and were two people fight, most of the times two people are the cause of this. Now, this might not be so in your case. But from the information I do have, which is what you are writing, I'd say that you should at least look at your own position in this a little bit more in stead of blaming your ex-partners.
I happen to like non-submissive women a lot more then submissive women and I am very glad that we can view women as equal nowadays. I dare say I would have missed out on a lot in my life if it were any different. I also don't have a lot of respect for people who don't treat women as equal, especially if they blaim failures which seem to result from that worldview completely on evolutionary theory, in stead of looking at themselves. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 13:46:58 [Permalink]
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I also don't have a lot of respect for people who don't treat women as equal, especially if they blaim failures which seem to result from that worldview completely on evolutionary theory, in stead of looking at themselves.
Well the divorece rate at 60-65% is a downfall of equality. American women need wives and not husbands anymore. A women needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle is a by product of your vison. Marriages are no longer happy. A women is called to be submissive to the husband. And a man is told to love his wife like Christ loves the church. Man is the head of the houshold that is why woman is called wo-man (and fe-male), because she was taken from man. God knew it didn't work having two opposites male and female, and not having a clear leader. I have had a bad time with women all along, I was adopted by a women, raised by a controlling nagging feminist woman, married two more feminazies, they didn't act like that when I met them.....anyways I do not like feminism or a by product of it that allows them to steer away from God and get their existence from the beasts of the feild...
The dead sea scrolls is a perfect example of the bible not changing one jot or tittle as the bible says. The bible was written by hand for 2000 years after the death of chirst, 2004 AD (hmmm interesting human years count down to the birth or Christ and up til now after his birth!!!) and in 1947 the scrolls are found, nothing had changed. Men wrote the scripture and buried it and it did not change in 2000 years.
I wonder what was in Alexander the Greats libary, and I wonder what is in the babylonian libary, what ancient secret is kept under lock and key....
http://historical.benabraham.com Here are some phallac symbols in the world church, proof Babylon still lives!!!!
What came first the chicken or the egg???? What magically happened in the past with no evidence of it today? I'm sure you guys know!!! LOL... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 14:01:33 [Permalink]
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A man is walking along the shore of the ocean one day, deeply concentrated in prayer. Suddenly, the skies part and God speaks to the man.
"My loyal subject, I see you have been faithful to me, praying every day and doing all I commanded. As a reward, I will grant you one wish, anything you want."
The man thinks about this for a while and says "Build me a bridge to Hawaii so I can drive there whenever I want"
God says "That's a very difficult task- think of the materials needed: the concrete to build pylons to the bottom of the ocean, the asphalt to pave it, the steel... not to mention the manpower needed to build it. I can't justify this selfish request. Think of another wish."
The man thinks for a while and says "God, I've never been successful with women. I've been through 3 divorces and all my ex-wives said that I'm uncaring, I don't listen, and I'm selfish. My wish is to truly understand women, to know what they mean when they say "nothing" and pout, to be able to please them, to know their thoughts, and to know what their erratic behavior represents and how to deal with it."
God thinks for a minute and says:
"Do you want 2 or 4 lanes on that bridge?" |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 14:48:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
A man is walking along the shore of the ocean one day, deeply concentrated in prayer. Suddenly, the skies part and God speaks to the man.
"My loyal subject, I see you have been faithful to me, praying every day and doing all I commanded. As a reward, I will grant you one wish, anything you want."
The man thinks about this for a while and says "Build me a bridge to Hawaii so I can drive there whenever I want"
God says "That's a very difficult task- think of the materials needed: the concrete to build pylons to the bottom of the ocean, the asphalt to pave it, the steel... not to mention the manpower needed to build it. I can't justify this selfish request. Think of another wish."
The man thinks for a while and says "God, I've never been successful with women. I've been through 3 divorces and all my ex-wives said that I'm uncaring, I don't listen, and I'm selfish. My wish is to truly understand women, to know what they mean when they say "nothing" and pout, to be able to please them, to know their thoughts, and to know what their erratic behavior represents and how to deal with it."
God thinks for a minute and says:
"Do you want 2 or 4 lanes on that bridge?"
Heh-heh, good joke! Thanks! 
Oh, the egg came first by better than half the racetrack. They date from probably the Precambrian and were well established as a reproductive strategy in the Cambrian, long before birds were around (or trees for them to roost in, comes to that).
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 14:54:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
What just because it is 2004 the bible somehow changed....
So what if the Bible hasn't changed (which it has)? The interpretation still changes. Even the most rabid fundamentalists could not possibly conform to everything the Bible says and commands. Why should we stick to the ancient Bible? Perhaps we should turn back time completely? I am sure life was much better back then.
quote:
If being equal to women meant a happy life than fine. I have noticed that it doesn't. God said his word never changes, he is the Alphan and Omega, the beginning and end.
Anyone can say that; it doesn't make it true. Especially not since God did not say it, humans did. But we knew that already, so...
quote:
Your theory gets in the way. Women speak just like you did, what that was written 2000-4000 years ago, yeah that is just about what 60 generations?
Not at all. Anyone who realizes that the evolution is a good theory can still treat women badly. I just chose not to, and do you know why? One reason is because I would not want to have them (or anyone else for that matter) to treat me badly. And even if I did want them to do that, I can't assume they have the same wish.
Anyway, we were discussing evolution, I think... what's new with the trees? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 15:01:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
I like this, even though the anology could use some work -- other than pollenators, most insect/plant relationships are preditory/parasitic in nature. And even the pollenators extract a price from the plant, consuming part of it both as the pollen vector and a larvae. But it nicely shows the interconnected relationships so commonly found in the natural world without which nothing could survive.
Excellent!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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