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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2004 : 23:50:45
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I have been wondering what people think about spiitual gifts.
I have seen some extrordinary things in the past couple years. I have seen prphetic words spoken directly into loved ones lives. Not like a pchycic hot line or something, but extremly direct things speaking to exactly what there issue was at that time, and even giving a solution in one case.
I have seen tounges spoken. While this is harder to prove to be genuine. It has come from people whom I trust and have the upmost respect for.
I'm just kind of wondering what people think about issues like these.
And though this sounds like I am making up these stories, please do not ask for exact accounts of the prophetic words that I have heard. I have great respect for the person whom they were spoken to, and feel as if he would not want me to share them with the masses. But please take my word on this. I am not making up stories whatsoever.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 23:59:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I have been wondering what people think about spiitual gifts.
1st thought, I was going to say I think they are creepy. But then I wondered what kind of religious gifts you meant. Crosses, statues of Mary, stuff like that is weird but I collect Santa Cluses and Witches and Xmas tree things.
quote:
I have seen some extrordinary things in the past couple years. I have seen prphetic words spoken directly into loved ones lives. Not like a pchycic hot line or something, but extremly direct things speaking to exactly what there issue was at that time, and even giving a solution in one case.
OHhhhhhhhhh!!! Those kind of 'gifts'.
What do I think? People doing things like that are good actors, and in some cases, not so good. The people believing in them are weird. And or fooling themselves.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 00:23:44 [Permalink]
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Well, I've heard people speaking in tongues, and it sounded like a lot of nonsense syllables to me, so I'm not sure how much of a "gift" it is. If you're talking about people speaking languages they're not supposed to know, that's rather different from what I've experienced.
But, what I think about these kinds of things is that without hard data, exact accounts, and verifiability, these sorts of stories don't mean much. If you aren't willing to give up the details, it's impossible for anyone else to come to anything even approaching a firm explanation, with or without God playing a part.
I'm not saying that I think you're making anything up. I trust that you are reporting what appears to you to be the truth. But everyone is biased in some way or another, and human memory is not like an organic video camera, but is instead malleable and tenuous (if you say the right things, you can make people "remember" events which did not happen).
I don't think that any event worthy of the title "spiritual gift" has been documented or examined to such an extent and to such high standards that "God did it" is the most-likely explanation. In fact, most of those which have been researched with strict methods have turned out to have completely mundane explanations, including everything from outright fraud to plain-old ignorance of phenomena known to scientists for centuries. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 03:08:19 [Permalink]
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| I would assume that there is a trick to it. I really would. Not that there can't be something to it, I suppose there could be some slim possibility. But I doubt it. Look for the trick. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 09:39:35 [Permalink]
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Well, I'm skeptical about spiritual "gifts". Surprise! 
I believe that often the person speaking in tongues or hearing "prophetic" words BELIEVES what they are doing, and as a result, can be very convincing. Just as liars who believe their own lies can be great at lying to others, right? The sense of conviction that a believer feels can be compelling--except to a cynical twit like me.  As I get older, I believe less and less of what I see and hear.
There have been a few times in my life when I "heard" in my head the answers to questions I'd asked myself. Sometimes I ask myself a hard question before falling asleep, and my first thoughts on waking are answers to those questions. Perhaps it's God answering me...or perhaps it's just my mind working the problem through subconsciously and showing me the solution. I believe the latter. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 20:35:20 [Permalink]
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I realize now that it is ridiculous to just say spiritual gifts with no context. The spiritual gifts I am speaking to are not like what you on TV, with everyone falling and such. I am speaking to these gifts in a very careful context, in which every prophesy is heard to make sure it would be edifying to the group. And there are never mroe than two or three "prophetic words" spoken on a Sunday morning, so that it does not take away from or overrun the real reason we are there. To worship God to the best of ability. And on many mornings there are no prophetic words spoken at all.
And though I said I was not going to, I am going to share the exact words spoken to my Uncle in a prophetic word. I heard it multiple time on cassette, so I am not remembering what I heard only one time.
Now please keep in mind, my Uncle was always a man who felt as if spiritual gifts were not in use anymore,but had grown curious and was attending a confrence on the matter. For a little context, my Uncle had been discussing with three of his sons nearly daily for quite some time about how there ministry could be involved with his. And in particular his eldest son whom he hoped would possibly be a music leader at there church. And he also had an elder in the church with him, who had been struggling because none of his family members were Christians.
So they were sitting listening to a man speak on the issue. He stopped and called out my Uncle, and his oldest son from the crowd, and asked them to come up on stage. He then proceded to call out the elder from there church from a seperate part of the room, without any prior knowlege that they were togeather. And then spoke to my Uncle saying: "You are a man with great spiritual firver and many questions." And went on to speak directly to how he and his sons would be togeather in ministry. Turned to his son and said "especially you who is extremly gifted in music".(he has since become the worship leader at there church) Then said to the elder in there church, and said " though it is not the case now, there will one day be spiritual prosperity in your family". Which has begun to happen since as well.
I exagerate these words not even slightly. This is exactly what happened. This man who spoke to them had no way of knowing who they were, or what there sircumstances were. Now please really consider what was said before trying to come back with an explenation. Because I have not thought of one yet.
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Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2004 : 22:12:02 [Permalink]
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No, you're probably not mis-remembering things, but I will say that you're probably (not certainly, just probably) missing information. "Calling out" people is one of the oldest tricks in the business, and I do mean 'trick'.
You claim that the speaker had no way of knowing who they were or what their circumstances were, but the fact is that many people who get "called out" have let the information "leak" in some way. Either they tell an associate of the speaker, or a friend of theirs does (without their knowledge).
This is a standard technique in so-called "faith healing" ministries, and also on shows like John Edward's Crossing Over. The strange thing is that people will mill about and chat with the "ushers" (or whatever other "staff" are around) for long periods of time prior to the real "show," talking about themselves and what they hope to get out of their time there, and then act amazed when the "star" tells them exactly what they told to a staff member.
And "spiritual prosperity" is a phrase which can mean many, many things. It is vague, and thus little wonder that it "has begun to happen," as lots of different life changes can be force-fitted into its "umbrella." In other words, it is an easy "prophecy" for a person to declare "fulfilled," unless, of course, lots of nasty stuff has happened (in which case, it's usually pinned on the listener as their fault, because they didn't have enough faith).
Sorry to say, C88, but unless you've got evidence that your uncle, his sons, and the speaker had no possible way of ever exchanging the information provided prior to that on-stage moment, it is more than likely (as has been demonstrated many times) that the speaker was playing a con game, and you (at the very least) have been taken. It's a game called "hot reading" (as opposed to "cold reading"), and is very successful and very much in use in religious and "spiritual" circles today.
Anybody who believes that they can call people out without foreknowledge (as described above, among other methods) can win over a million bucks from James Randi by doing so in a tightly-controlled test. That's a decent chunk of help for Christian goals. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 05:04:04 [Permalink]
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For one thing the term "spiritual prosperity" is not vauge at all. In fact it's extremly pointed.
And also, my uncle and his sons had never seen the man before, let alone spoke to him. The same is true for the elder in there church. There is nobody else they even knew at the confrence. There was absolutly no way possible, for him to have known that.
And these people are not trying to make money off of these gifts. They are so extremly careful with what I believe is really there. They have whole seminars on how to make sure you are being careful with the gifts you are given. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 06:03:17 [Permalink]
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I've never heard the phrase "spirtual prosperity." I have no idea what it means. If the definition is so clear, please share it with us, C88?
One other thing: Another tool in my skeptic's tool box is the Financial Interest tool. When someone has a financial interest in making me believe something, I almost never believe them. This applies to people as varied as salespeople, nonprofits who seek donations, and religious organizations--just to name a few. If somebody wants my money, I'm suspicious.
Example: I don't believe the Clinique salesgirl when she tells me that plum-colored lipstick looks good on me; I use my own judgment. She makes a commission if I buy her products, so her desire to put food on the table is likely greater than her desire to see me with the right color makeup.
Did these spirtual gift givers extract any money at all from your family? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 06:11:03 [Permalink]
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Spiritual is as spiritual does, I think. As I was not at the church, I can't make much of a comment. Holy rollers and speakers in tongues are, in my opinion sincere, at least for the most part. They have let their emotions get away from them and, as this sort of thing is imprinted upon them, they roll and they speak.
Say, speaking of holy-rollers, is that fakir in India still rolling along? He's gone thousands of miles without touching a foot to ground. Amazing!
I think that everybody has their own definition of spirituality. As an atheist, even I feel a sort of spiritual comfort, a blending with my surroundings, when I'm out in the field.
The writings of Adolph Hitler demonstrate a spiritual side even to to that madman -- perhaps spirituality is not always a good thing. He wrote in Mein Kamph that offing the Jews was doing the work of God.
Spirituality is big business today. Such precious charecters as Kent Hovind, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, and that insufferable, little prick; Randall Terry, all profess to be 'spiritual', even though they steep themselves in intolorance and indeed, outright viciousness. And none are above robbing the poor-box, at least figuritivly. And all are on a monsterous ego-trip. But they got the spirit, oh yeah; Gimmie a Amen on the spirit!
The spiritual gift I have recieved, and deeply appreciate, is simply to be able to observe the wonderous, natural world I live in.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 08:33:10 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
For one thing the term "spiritual prosperity" is not vauge at all. In fact it's extremly pointed.
As far as I can tell, "spiritual prosperity" means "good fortune in the non-material realm," which is just a single prepositional phrase away from "good fortune," the most-vague "prediction" anyone can really make.quote:
And also, my uncle and his sons had never seen the man before, let alone spoke to him. The same is true for the elder in there church. There is nobody else they even knew at the confrence. There was absolutly no way possible, for him to have known that.
And yet you're telling me that you only know these things second-hand, and I doubt that you have the whole story as might be seen by a disinterested observer.
quote:
And these people are not trying to make money off of these gifts.
I didn't say they were, I only suggested that they can do so to the tune of a million bucks if the gifts are real.quote:
They are so extremly careful with what I believe is really there. They have whole seminars on how to make sure you are being careful with the gifts you are given.
Which is exactly what a good con man would do. "Con" of course, is short for "confidence." Con men require their marks to trust them. And it's not always about monetary gain. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 09:30:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Creation88 wrote:
quote:
For one thing the term "spiritual prosperity" is not vauge at all. In fact it's extremly pointed.
Dave W. wrote:
As far as I can tell, "spiritual prosperity" means "good fortune in the non-material realm," which is just a single prepositional phrase away from "good fortune," the most-vague "prediction" anyone can really make.
I agree with Dave W. here. But even if what you say is true Creation88, then I wouldn't be surprised if the prophetic words would have made their spiritual prosperity an issue in the family. Maybe they already knew something was not right in their familiy, but pointing out the fact just made things fall into place.
quote:
Creation88 wrote:
quote:
They are so extremly careful with what I believe is really there. They have whole seminars on how to make sure you are being careful with the gifts you are given.
Dave W. wrote:
Which is exactly what a good con man would do. "Con" of course, is short for "confidence." Con men require their marks to trust them. And it's not always about monetary gain.
I saw a documentary on Discovery Channel a while ago. In it was someone reading hands. He was always right when he did this, and sincerely believed that he could foretell the truth with it. Untill someone challenged him to tell people the exact opposite of what he saw when reading hands. He was still completely right all the time, because his foretellings were vague enough. They had more examples, but this one stood out. For me the program showed that people can be completely sincere in foretelling the future, so they're not tricking anyone on purpose. They just believe they are doing a good thing in helping people with their abilities, without realizing they don't have any special abilities at all. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2004 : 16:21:49 [Permalink]
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And, just to add another wrinkle here, it's quite possible that the speaker really didn't have any inside information. Let's examine what he said:quote:
So they were sitting listening to a man speak on the issue.
Which issue, specifically? You mention several, and context is important here.quote:
He stopped and called out my Uncle, and his oldest son from the crowd, and asked them to come up on stage. He then proceded to call out the elder from there church from a seperate part of the room, without any prior knowlege that they were togeather.
Did it matter? You don't report that the speaker ever said they were there together, so it seems like just a coincidence. On another angle, how many other people were also called out?quote:
And then spoke to my Uncle saying: "You are a man with great spiritual firver and many questions."
Given that they'd gone to see a speaker talk about religious stuff, this was probably true of every man in the audience. In other words, it is not specific to your uncle, and a very safe guess. "You've lost God and think you know everything" would be a much more impressive pronouncement, as it probably would have insulted 99% of the people there.quote:
And went on to speak directly to how he and his sons would be togeather in ministry.
What, exactly, did he say?quote:
Turned to his son and said "especially you who is extremly gifted in music".(he has since become the worship leader at there church)
Note that he didn't say "you will be the worship leader at your church." Most people, in my opinion, consider themselves much more musically gifted than they actually are. Telling a person that they are "extremely gifted in music" is a nice vague statement that people will often consider to be a compliment, even if they're tone deaf.quote:
Then said to the elder in there church, and said " though it is not the case now, there will one day be spiritual prosperity in your family".
If the subject of the talk was "believers within non-Christian families," these vague pronouncements were a safe bet. Yet again, they don't appear to be specific to the elder, and if there is any "spiritual strife" in a person's family (true for almost everyone), the first clause will be considered a "hit." Whether or not the "prediction" holds true is irrelevant, as it could mean many things. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 15:36:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I have seen some extrordinary things in the past couple years. I have seen prphetic words spoken directly into loved ones lives. Not like a pchycic hot line or something, but extremly direct things speaking to exactly what there issue was at that time, and even giving a solution in one case.
I've had prophetic words spoken to me, by someone I had utmost respect for, more than once. The first time it was a hit, not by pure dumb luck, but because in that particular point in time there was at least someone bound to be suffering from what I was suffering from. And then, the person could easily have seen that I was in dire need of some prophetic words.
In the other instance, the other person delivering a prophetic word to me died more than ten years ago, and the prophecy is yet to come true. In fact, the chance of it coming true is more distant today than it was when it was delivered. I've become quite the opposite person from the one that was prophesied.
quote:
I have seen tounges spoken. While this is harder to prove to be genuine. It has come from people whom I trust and have the upmost respect for.
I have seen tongues spoken by people I've been childhood friends with. I have spoken it myself. And let me tell you: It's nonsensical gibberish that you spurt out. There's nothing much to it, other than you have to remember to form proper syllables. Otherwise it will not sound like a secret language from you own soul to God.
It is nothing more than ordinary BS.
quote:
But please take my word on this. I am not making up stories whatsoever.
I'm not either. My experiences as written above were from the time when I was a misguided, but devout follower of Christ in the Pentecostal church in Sweden. Later I realised what a fool I had been, and how misled (however unintentionally by most of my friends in the church who was equally misguided) I had been.
Now that my eyes have been opened, and I see the world without Morton's Demon, the world is even more wondrous and fantastically complex than I had ever imagined. |
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