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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2004 : 07:47:47
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Right off the top of my head I can think of half a dozen common sense initiatives to improve our Democracy. Yet they'll never happen. Why? I'm skeptical of our political establishment's committment to democracy....
Suggested Improvements:
- Schedule voting on Saturdays or make election day a national holiday.
- A month in advance, mail every voter a detailed description of every candidate and every proposal they'll find on the ballot.
- Make it a misdemeanor NOT to vote, complete with fine (is $50 dollars too much?) and publish the names of everyone who doesn't vote.
- If less than 75% of registered voters turn out, then disqualify the election.
- Make it a felony for a politician to lie in a public statement. If a subsequent fact check shows a statement made by a politician is deliberately misleading (deliberateness to be determined by a 3 judge panel  ) then fine the asshole and disqualify him from the election. I guarentee this would clean up all the lying in politics in short order. The same could be done with organizations that run campaign adds - punishble with hefty fine and banning from further political statements for that election. Yes it's a restriction of speach, but some speach is harmful - ex: yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Lies in elections are arguably far more harmul to the public. . . .
- Publicly fund all elections 100% - each candidate who makes it to the ballot receiving the exact same funding & the exact same tv exposure. It's time to elect people based on their platforms instead of whether we recognize their face.
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-Chaloobi
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Edited by - chaloobi on 04/15/2004 07:49:54
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2004 : 08:51:50 [Permalink]
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There are too many people voting now that don't know what they're doing. Don't force the rest of them to vote.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 09:18:44 [Permalink]
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One way would be to open the polls for a set period of time, say 12 hours, starting simultaneously and all polls close at the same time. This tends to reduce the probability that polls reporting in the East will affect the rest of the nation.
Outside of that, how about let's start at home and educate the children that we have. TEach them to think, and to read, then maybe people will learn to vote. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 09:43:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
There are too many people voting now that don't know what they're doing. Don't force the rest of them to vote.
This is the kind of thinking that destroys democracy and I think your thoughts our echoed by our 'political establishment.' If everyone is well versed on the real issues at stake, rather than being subjected to a multi-media mud-slinging popularity contest masquerading as an election campaign, then they can make intelligent decisions.
Forbid the lies, go to lengths to ensure everyone is exposed to the issues at stake, make sure every candidate has equal access to the public, and you'll be safe making everyone vote. Democracy requires honesty and an informed electorate. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 09:46:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
One way would be to open the polls for a set period of time, say 12 hours, starting simultaneously and all polls close at the same time. This tends to reduce the probability that polls reporting in the East will affect the rest of the nation.
Outside of that, how about let's start at home and educate the children that we have. TEach them to think, and to read, then maybe people will learn to vote.
That's a good point - this exit polling and reporting the results thing has to stop. News organizations should be forbidden to predict election results based on exit polls while the polls are open anywhere.
And education is always a good thing, and not just for creating informed electorate!  |
-Chaloobi
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 10:01:24 [Permalink]
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Well, you're agreeing with me here in that you're saying that people should be educated. What you think educated is and what I think educated is might be two different things, however.
Even with that, I wouldn't see the benefit in forcing everyone to vote. There is no reason to think that everyone should vote.
Forbid the lies? Then who would run?
quote:
Forbid the lies, go to lengths to ensure everyone is exposed to the issues at stake, make sure every candidate has equal access to the public, and you'll be safe making everyone vote. Democracy requires honesty and an informed electorate.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 10:26:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, you're agreeing with me here in that you're saying that people should be educated. What you think educated is and what I think educated is might be two different things, however.
Even with that, I wouldn't see the benefit in forcing everyone to vote. There is no reason to think that everyone should vote.
Forbid the lies? Then who would run?
I don't think everyone necessarily has to have a college education in order to vote inteligently. But we should all be sent, well in advance, a detailed, plainly worded, description of every person and every issue on the ballot. And if there's a question of bias in the description, then let there be 2 descriptions - one from those opposed and one from those for. (But if they lie in the description, they get punished severely . . .)
The benefit of forcing everyone to vote is to have a true democracy representative of all the groups. It's disgraceful that we have 30 and 40% voter turnouts. Shame on us. If you're going to be a citizen of this democracy, you should be required to participate in the voting process. It's a civic duty, like jury duty.
Lastly, the cynicism you express about 'lies, who would run' is indicative of the problem in US politics. We don't trust our politicians, and thus the political system, because they've been able to get away with lying so pervasively for so long. If that's forbidden, you will get people of genuine integrity running for office and a resurgence of faith in the political system. Our whole society would benefit. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 04/15/2004 10:27:10 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 11:17:03 [Permalink]
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Well, now you're getting to the real problem and that is a country with only one party, the big business party. We need to end the monopoly and let other parties get involved in the system. Ralph Nader showed very well last time that it is almost illegal to be a candidate of another party.
Voting has just become a way for politicians to show that their rule has been validated by the masses. If voting changed anything, it would be illegal. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 22:15:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Suggested Improvements:
quote:
- Schedule voting on Saturdays or make election day a national holiday.
I like the idea, end it with lots of beers. However, I think that people who really want to express their votes will vote anyway, whether day have a day of or not.
quote:
- A month in advance, mail every voter a detailed description of every candidate and every proposal they'll find on the ballot.
Unfortunately, I haven't been in America long enough to witness an election. However, isn't this publicly available for those who are interested? Those who aren't probably won't read it anyway, so why bother?
quote:
- Make it a misdemeanor NOT to vote, complete with fine (is $50 dollars too much?) and publish the names of everyone who doesn't vote.
They have this in a number of countries. From what I heard, this doesn't help democracy. It rather helps those parties/people who say what people want to hear, not those with a really good program. In my view, such a measure would not help democracy, because people who wouldn't go voting won't study party programs/viewpoint if they are forced to. So they will just vote for the cute face (or Arnold).
quote:
- If less than 75% of registered voters turn out, then disqualify the election.
But what do you do after that? In my student association it is a rule that if an important decision isn't approved by 67% of the members, the vote is rescheduled. After that, it is approved even if the turn-out is smaller. So the rule doesn't help much. However, you need such a rule since you really need to make a decision at some point.
quote:
- Make it a felony for a politician to lie in a public statement. If a subsequent fact check shows a statement made by a politician is deliberately misleading (deliberateness to be determined by a 3 judge panel ) then fine the asshole and disqualify him from the election. I guarentee this would clean up all the lying in politics in short order. The same could be done with organizations that run campaign adds - punishble with hefty fine and banning from further political statements for that election. Yes it's a restriction of speach, but some speach is harmful - ex: yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Lies in elections are arguably far more harmul to the public. . . .
I don't think you'll be able to make this work, since the possibility to implement a decision or to reach certain goals is not the decision of the candidate alone.
quote:
- Publicly fund all elections 100% - each candidate who makes it to the ballot receiving the exact same funding & the exact same tv exposure. It's time to elect people based on their platforms instead of whether we recognize their face.
This, or a maximum amount of money spent on election campaigns could, IMO, be a very good measure. See the Bush-funding versus the Kerry-funding at this point. I would like to see them have equal opportiunities to express their views.
In general however, I've just lost my faith in democracy. Back in the Netherlands we've had Pim Fortuin (you know, the guy who got shot). He didn't have any clear goals about what he wanted to do when he would be elected, but because he said exactly what people wanted to hear, he got a lot of support. And to make things worse, after he got shot (and he couldn't be removed from the ballot anymore) people voted for him! For a dead man!
IMHO, democracy has a big logical flaw in current society. Since matters in a big society are so complicated that only a select few really have an informed opinion about what to do, those guys will always be overwhelmed by the many, who really don't have a clue about what they're talking about. Only problem is I don't have a good alternative. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 00:06:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Unfortunately, I haven't been in America long enough to witness an election. However, isn't this publicly available for those who are interested? Those who aren't probably won't read it anyway, so why bother?
Yes, I agree. And making a law that people must vote...my 1st thought, like Gorgo, Are you sure you want everyone to vote? But seriously, if you MAKE people vote, they might resent having to do so. I've never missed an election but lately I'm thinking, I don't care, why vote when there are no good choices. I certainly wouldn't want to pay a fine for that. Then if people have to vote, and not informed, how would that sway the election. Like Tom here says, they won't read anyway. I don't want uninformed voters voting because they have to.
Yes, I too think people should start early, grade school, to be educated, and that's right, college is not a criteria. One can be intelligent without a higher formal education. My roommate, became a naturalized citizen and like me never finished college but he reads and watches the news a lot, more than I. He, IMO, is more informed than many born Americans and because he's from another country even has a better appreciation and understanding of the government here.
There are places one can get information about the issues besides that idiotic propaganda, those who care will do that.
Maybe that balances out the votes of those who do vote and who don't understand. LOL, although I've seen some pretty stupid measures pass with a large majority of votes. The IDIOTS!
There are many factors to consider. Didn't it work better before they started changing things? Let's not be so quick to jump in before we think about the results. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 00:12:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
- Schedule voting on Saturdays or make election day a national holiday.
Forgot to add, your employer has to let you off to vote, at least here in California so I think that's a federal law, isn't it?
And there's always the absente ballot, which can be turned in at the polling place(at least in California), if you decide to vote in person.
If it should become a national holiday, I hope you don't mean companies would have to pay, yet another days wages for NO WORK. We already have some 'holidays' that shouldn't be. If you know what I mean. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 04:20:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Right off the top of my head I can think of half a dozen common sense initiatives to improve our Democracy. Yet they'll never happen. Why? I'm skeptical of our political establishment's committment to democracy....
Suggested Improvements:
- Schedule voting on Saturdays or make election day a national holiday.
- A month in advance, mail every voter a detailed description of every candidate and every proposal they'll find on the ballot.
- Make it a misdemeanor NOT to vote, complete with fine (is $50 dollars too much?) and publish the names of everyone who doesn't vote.
- If less than 75% of registered voters turn out, then disqualify the election.
I don't believe in forced voting, because I think it's better that they who are uninterested and/or lack knowledge about the most basics things concerning politics don't vote at all.
quote:
- Make it a felony for a politician to lie in a public statement. If a subsequent fact check shows a statement made by a politician is deliberately misleading (deliberateness to be determined by a 3 judge panel ) then fine the asshole and disqualify him from the election. I guarentee this would clean up all the lying in politics in short order. The same could be done with organizations that run campaign adds - punishble with hefty fine and banning from further political statements for that election. Yes it's a restriction of speach, but some speach is harmful - ex: yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. Lies in elections are arguably far more harmul to the public. . . .
This one, I like. But it would be difficult to actually enforce it, I suspect?
quote:
- Publicly fund all elections 100% - each candidate who makes it to the ballot receiving the exact same funding & the exact same tv exposure. It's time to elect people based on their platforms instead of whether we recognize their face.
I like to think that people don't vote on a certain candidate just because they recognize his face. Sure, there are candidates that few know about and they don't vote on that guy because they hardly knew about him... but still, even with equal time, lots of people would still vote the same as last time.
I think that democracy would be improved if the educational system was improved. Teach the kids to think for themselves, teach them skepticism and teach them about how society works and the history of the world. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 08:37:52 [Permalink]
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Maverick, I agree. I'm proud to say that my kids have only missed an election when they couldn't get to the polls -- not very often. When they were young, I used to take them to the polls with me. They developed an interest at an early age.
I think that the larger the turnout, the better government we'll have. The last thing incumbent polititions want is something like 80% voting. There would be too much uncertainty. And I agree strongly that lying in a public statement should be a felony.
This year, I go to the polls with blood on my mind and murder in my heart!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 11:52:45 [Permalink]
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| I think better than messing with voting would be to find some way to make the media responsible to the people rather than to the dollar. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 12:09:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I think better than messing with voting would be to find some way to make the media responsible to the people rather than to the dollar.
Agree again, but lots o' fucking luck.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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