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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2004 : 23:54:07
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I would just like to say before I begin that I DO NOT beleive the Matrix is real. But I would however like to see you be Skeptical about it. Tell me some facts about why it couldn't exist.
One thought I have is, the machines must be feeding the humans to keep them alive and to keep them warm. In that case, why can't they just burn whatever it is they are feeding them and cut out the whole Matrix thing?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 04:13:52 [Permalink]
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| Good point. I think they were melting down the dead somehow and feeding that to the people. |
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Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 07:00:36 [Permalink]
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dominic_dice wrote:quote:
Tell me some facts about why it couldn't exist.
I'm not sure there are any, given the premises of the film. Machine intelligence, after all, is a goal that many people are working towards, right now. Given an unspecified amount of time, there's no real reason why it cannot happen.
And while using humans as "batteries" does appear to be silly, from an energy-efficiency point-of-view, they don't, in the first film at least, go into the reasoning behind it in enough detail for anyone to say "that would never happen." There's always a chance someone could dream up a scenario in which it must happen.
Maybe I can. In the film, it appears that photosynthesis has pretty-much stopped - the sky is "burnt" and we see little but rocks. The machines find big-brained humans relatively easy to breed and tap for power, and so grind up every bit of biomass they can find, and feed it to the humans to keep the energy-production high. They even recycle human waste and dead humans.
The laws of thermodynamics tell us that this won't last forever, though, and so off-camera, the machines are using the energy gained from people to build huge solar panels which will fly above the clouds.
Contrived? Yes? Possible? Maybe. Impossible? I don't think so.
Except for the fact that smart machines would hack the arms and legs off people while infants, since growing them would be a waste of energy. They've got the technology to tap directly into the brain and weave a complete fantasy world? Surely they've got the tech to do such amputative surgery without killing people. Heck, get rid of the appendix and spleen, one kidney and one lung, too. No need for eyes, nose, or ears, either.
Boy, Keanu would have had the acting challenge of a lifetime, had I been writing the screenplay. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 07:03:44 [Permalink]
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I actually have a 'Matrix' thread going - or not going now  in the General Discussion forum. I invite any interested, especailly the thread starter, to read some of the ideas I posted there and comment. I won't repeat it here because that would be too much like wasting my time. Not that talking about the Matrix isn't intrinsicly a waste of time anyway, but re-writing what is already time wasted is just egregious. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 09:40:48 [Permalink]
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The Machines must be very stupid to use people as 'batteries'. It is incredibly inefficient. You are right in saying they should burn or convert whatever they are feeding the humans into energy. As far as using dead humans to feed the living humans - entropy rears it's head. Think how many thousands of pounds of food it takes to have a baby reach adulthood.
Maybe the machines use people as energy because they 'hate' people and they just want them to suffer.
It would be much more efficient and easy to use thermal energy from the interior of the earth for all of the power they need.
There is also no need for a matrix - just remove most of the brain and let the body run on little more than a brain stem.
Like most science fiction (not all) it is best not to look to deep and just enjoy the ride.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 11:13:54 [Permalink]
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1. I agree, there's no way they can get as much energy out of humans as it takes to grow and maintain the 'crops.' This whole premise for the Matrix is, in a word, stupid - bad sci-fi.
2. If the machines wanted humans to suffer wouldn't they make a much nastier Matrix than the more or less benevolent one they did?
3. Or why not use dogs and cats in the matrix? Why use humans? Or, even better, why not keep the humans comatose? Much easier to deal with then . . .
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-Chaloobi
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dominic_dice
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 23:30:04 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, could you imagine an "exile" cow? They wouldn't need such a complex matrix either. Anyway, I disagree that a Machine would want to make somthing suffer-do machines have feelings like revenge? |
"Are you THE dominic_dice"
"No, a dominic_dice. I come in six packs now" |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 08:47:34 [Permalink]
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If you watch the animatrix you get some answers to the questions here (and personally, I like those the best, together with Matrix 1).
In the animatrix it becomes clear that the machines do have emotions, their AI being complex enough to allow this.
The machines using people as an energy source is also explained in the animatrix. Yes, it's a farfetched idea. Yes, it would never work but hey, it's fiction and pretty darn cool fiction if you ask me , |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 10:26:35 [Permalink]
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| I think it's clear from Agent Smith's explanation of how he hates the smell in the Matrix that the AIs have emotions. And this is not a problem for the story, IMO. Afterall, we created them in our image, didn't we? Why wouldn't they have emotions? Consider the Merovingian in Reloaded - he was all about accumulating power, seducing women, and generally indulging the pleasures of the Matrix (remember his love of language, especially cursing in French?). Clearly he had emotions. |
-Chaloobi
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2004 : 15:48:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
A few of those arn't emotions. Accumulating power is not an emotion at all, and seducing women can be labled as just being succesful.
The merovingian wanted to accumulate power and had a definite pleasure in seducing women. These might not be real emotions, but that he liked doing them clearly counts as an emotion for me. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2004 : 06:49:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
"Consider the Merovingian in Reloaded - he was all about accumulating power, seducing women, and generally indulging the pleasures of the Matrix (remember his love of language, especially cursing in French?). Clearly he had emotions."
A few of those arn't emotions. Accumulating power is not an emotion at all, and seducing women can be labled as just being succesful.
I remeber hearing something about how some professor at a college claimed that there was a 20% chance that we actually live in the Matrix. I'm not sure if there was someone who actually claimed it, but I remeber reading that story somewhere.
Lust is an emotion - whether for power or for women. But if you want a more traditional example - What about his wife? She clearly longed for love. She envied the love Neo and Trinity had. Both are strong emotions. |
-Chaloobi
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LOGOS
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 22:14:09 [Permalink]
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>In that case, why can't they just burn whatever it is they are >feeding them and cut out the whole Matrix thing?
Why don't they just use the bio-energy from cows and skip the whole 'matrix' thing?
;-)
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LOGOS |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 05:45:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LOGOS
Why don't they just use the bio-energy from cows and skip the whole 'matrix' thing?
Then they have to manage the cows, while at the same time spending energy keeing humans subjugated. In this case they are killing two birds with one stone. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 09:58:00 [Permalink]
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Dr Mabuse wrote:quote:
Then they have to manage the cows, while at the same time spending energy keeing humans subjugated. In this case they are killing two birds with one stone.
But if they fed the humans to the cows, it would also kill two birds with one stone.
Of course, the catch is that there's something about the style of "life" within the Matrix which is required for its operation. Agent Smith speaks of the first Matrix being a failure, since the humans didn't like the perfect world they'd made. This implies that not just any living being will do, and so perhaps cows simply wouldn't work. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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