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LuvMaxim
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - 05/04/2004 : 20:43:08
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The US now consumes at least 80% of the world's methylphenidate (ritalin,adderal etc..) Mostly which is consumed by the nation's school children. Some as young as two who are also now being given thinks such as prozac, dexadrine and wellbutrin. While chemical imbalances still remain unvalidated and unproven people and psychiatrists and even schools either reccomend or prescribe it to them. Is it some wild coincidence that this so called disease/disorder is only occurring in American children or something else. I just wanted to throw this one out there and hear other people's thoughts.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 05/04/2004 : 20:53:31 [Permalink]
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Welcome to the SFN, LuvMaxim!
You appear to be suggesting that the "disease/disorder" is caused by the drugs. I'd just like to say that it's much more likely that the disease(s) are being overdiagnosed, especially by the small percentage of people who'd much rather look for a chemical solution to their kids' problems than to actually have to work at parenting. (Those people are, of course, an extreme.)
Some diseases simply wind up being "fad diagnoses," and rise and fall with public sentiment, although the idea of giving these serious drugs to children should be based upon much more than popularity. On the other hand, it has been nearly impossible to get the public to the point where most people will not demand an antibiotic when they've got a headcold, so the "need for treatment" runs deep. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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LuvMaxim
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2004 : 21:09:16 [Permalink]
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| .I meant exactly what you said that it is being over diagnosed in this country especially. I am really glad that someone agrees with me on this. A lot of times when I have brought this up to people I have been met with strong opposition to my opinion. I feel the same way about antibiotics as well. Logically people know that they can not be useful in treating the common cold and other viral infections but still insist on getting the anti-biotics.As far as psychiatric drugs go I am opposed to them but especially their use in treating perfectly normal active children.Parents support other parents in the whole adhd fiasco and the new bi-polar children diagnosis as well and I feel when speaking to a lot of them that they haven't done enough research, especially for something so serious. It is just like you said "using drugs in lieu of good parenting).Really upsetting stuff. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 02:14:53 [Permalink]
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Welcome LuvMaxim!
I think that our society in general is over-medicated. Indeed, sometimes I wonder; is it fashionable to be sick? Or is it that the medicines are available and, well, it'd be a shame to let them go to waste, now wouldn't it? I dunno.
Having been the single parent of two daughters, had having seen days where I could have cheerfully throttled both of the lovely, little wretches, I know how frustrating raising children can be, once in a while. But never, not even my in most apoplectic moments, would I have considered doping them up. I consider that a form of abuse. I think that it is downright dangerous to do such a thing to a child for no more than just being a child.
This is not to say that no kid should ever recieve these sorts medications. There are a few that have severe behavioral disorders and need something. But I'm not sure that even these require as much as they get.
Let us not forget: our children are the paybacks for all of the shit that we pulled on our parents. Today, I watch my daughters get their paybacks and am pleased to see that they are taking them quite well. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 05:35:53 [Permalink]
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Welcome, Luv. I must say I disagree with you. The "our society is over-medicated" thing echoes in my head the same way "the media has a liberal bias" does: as one of those conventional wisdom bits that doesn't necessarily hold up to scrutiny.
I think our society is under-medicated and under-diagnosed. Many, if not most, addicts, for example, have an underlying depression or anxiety disorder. The addicts are essentially self-medicating with their addiction and their original problem goes undiagnosed and untreated--at an enormous cost to the person and society, I might add.
I just read new research that talked about higher risk and less effectiveness in giving antidepressants to young children, so it looks like conventional medical thinking on that issue, anyway, is changing. I don't know much about ADD, but I seem to recall that children with ADD respond differently to stimulants like Ritalin or even caffeine than do children without ADD.
As for there being no evidence that mental disorders have a chemical basis, that isn't my understanding. They know that schizophrenia is linked to dopamine imbalances, for example, and that depression and anxiety are linked to serotonin imbalances. (I'd cite references but I'm too lazy to look it up)
Having said all that, though, I think American kids are (and I'm generalizing here) under a lot of stress. I know teen-agers who are literally busier than I am, and I work two jobs. At the risk of sounding like an old fart (ahem), when I was a kid, I had time to ride my bike aimlessly and lie under a tree and look up at the clouds. I don't think kids have much down time any more to do this, and I wonder if it's part of the problem.
Also, Luv, whether a child or an adult is on a psychotropic drug is ultimately decision of the patient and her doctor. It's really not for anybody else to say. I also think that the attitude you display can be harmful to people who DO need psychotropic drugs. The attitude seems to invalidate their illness, denigrate them, or make them feel inadequate or guilty for being sick.
We can't control all that goes on with our bodies. Sometimes even the healthiest people get sick, mentally or otherwise.
Apologies for not citing references to the above thoughts, but I'm already late for work. |
| Edited by - Renae on 05/05/2004 05:58:35 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 11:04:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Welcome, Luv. I must say I disagree with you. The "our society is over-medicated" thing echoes in my head the same way "the media has a liberal bias" does: as one of those conventional wisdom bits that doesn't necessarily hold up to scrutiny.
I actually believe that the ADD diagnosis intances are way up and treatment usually points toward heavy psychotropic drugs. When I was diagnosed with a form of what is now called ADD, my specialist controlled it with diet. There were all of 13,000 cases in the US. It stayed that way until a pharmeceutical company made a drug for it. Very quickly, "problem children" (who needed someone to show them who's boss) became ADD, there are even anectdotal stories of school systems insisting (through school nurses) that BD kids be treated as if they had ADD and be medicated.
quote:
I think our society is under-medicated and under-diagnosed. Many, if not most, addicts, for example, have an underlying depression or anxiety disorder. The addicts are essentially self-medicating with their addiction and their original problem goes undiagnosed and untreated--at an enormous cost to the person and society, I might add.
In some sectors of medicine, the population is under-treated. I personally blame managed care, but that's just me. ADD, is one aspect which is over treated.
quote:
I just read new research that talked about higher risk and less effectiveness in giving antidepressants to young children, so it looks like conventional medical thinking on that issue, anyway, is changing. I don't know much about ADD, but I seem to recall that children with ADD respond differently to stimulants like Ritalin or even caffeine than do children without ADD.
Absolutely. It is interesting to note some of the side effects of these medications which present in children have dissociative episodes. It is also interesting that the class of drugs which Ritalin is a part of is also linked to quite a few school shootings in recent times.
quote:
As for there being no evidence that mental disorders have a chemical basis, that isn't my understanding. They know that schizophrenia is linked to dopamine imbalances, for example, and that depression and anxiety are linked to serotonin imbalances. (I'd cite references but I'm too lazy to look it up)
I think the point with ADD is that it is being diagnosed when it is not present. There are several genuine mental disorders which most definately have a chemical imbalance in the brain. Some forms of mania and depression spring to mind.
quote:
Having said all that, though, I think American kids are (and I'm generalizing here) under a lot of stress. I know teen-agers who are literally busier than I am, and I work two jobs. At the risk of sounding like an old fart (ahem), when I was a kid, I had time to ride my bike aimlessly and lie under a tree and look up at the clouds. I don't think kids have much down time any more to do this, and I wonder if it's part of the problem.
Most definately it is part of the problem. The drugs, however, do little to help the situation.
quote:
Also, Luv, whether a child or an adult is on a psychotropic drug is ultimately decision of the patient and her doctor. It's really not for anybody else to say. I also think that the attitude you display can be harmful to people who DO need psychotropic drugs. The attitude seems to invalidate their illness, denigrate them, or make them feel inadequate or guilty for being sick.
In some cases, though, the individuals being placed on these psychotropic drugs are doing so due to some coersion by school systems.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 05/05/2004 11:08:17 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 14:04:59 [Permalink]
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I was diagnosed, as an adult, with ADD and I take Concerta. In my stupid youth I took drugs, and let me assure you that Concerta, at least, is not what I would call a mood altering drug. If I forget to take a pill in the morning I cannot tell if I have taken it or not based on how I feel. It is very difficult for me to tell that I am even taking the drug except for the fact that I am less 'scatter-brained' and can more easily focus. My wife says that she can easily tell the difference in me (easily distracted and such) on the occasions that I have gone off the drug to see if I really need it.
I graduated from the bottom 50% of my high school because I was unable to concentrate. I had to reach an age of almost 30 years old and spend 8 years in the Navy before I could learn to force myself to concentrate and finally succeed at College. I was able to graduate from Cornell with a Chem. Eng. degree without taking the Concerta. I may not NEED it but at least I have a chance of not losing my keys and wallet when I take the drug.
That being said I do feel that ADD is over-diagnosed, but I also feel that it is very helpful for many individuals.
Many parents will react negatively to the whole ADD discussion because they feel that they are being accused of drugging their children to keep them docile.
I would have loved to have been given the opportunity to take a drug for ADD in my youth. Maybe I would not have hated school and would not have to hear that I was just not applying myself over and over.
I loath to talk about anything personal on a forum, but I wanted to let parents with ADD children know what my experience has been. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 17:21:24 [Permalink]
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Y'all, I've yet to see any evidence supporting the fact that ADD is over-diagnosed or over-treated. I've heard anecdotal reports, but anecdotes are anecdotes, not evidence.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 17:49:28 [Permalink]
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Some in California want to prescribe marijuana for ADHD.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117541,00.html
I don't think we should encourage our youth to take any drugs if not needed, especially illegal ones.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 06:46:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Dr. Peter Breggin is not the most reliable source on ADHD. Quackwatch has a few things to say about him:
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/breggin.html
- TW
You've brought up an interesting set of information. I'll have to look deeper into it.
However, the National Institute of Health report supports cases in which ADHD is overdiagnosed and your own sources links to AAP states that there is no standard test to diagnose ADHD and relies on information from the child's school pretty heavily.
Quite frankly, the stance that I have is not that ADHD doesn't exist, but that it does not exist in the numbers that have been alledged. Schools have changed from the nurturing establishments that they once were to little more than learning holding areas with the school administrators and teachers more interested in keeping order than teaching. Since the major source of information is comprimised, it calls into question the frequency of diagnosis. I also find it odd that before there were drugs to treat this disorder, ADD/ADHD was only diagnosed in 13,000 children nationwide. But afterwards, 8 million are diagnosed.
Here's some other problems I have with the medication of ADHD patients.
http://www.researchmatters.harvard.edu/story.php?article_id=748
http://dir.salon.com/health/feature/2000/03/31/ritalin/index.html |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 10:35:46 [Permalink]
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I hadn't had much occasion to think about ADHD. I just recognized the Breggin name from being a longterm browser of Quackwatch and a few other such sites. (I also note with amusement that the anti-quackery webring is chock full of google ads for Coral Calcium  )
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Quite frankly, the stance that I have is not that ADHD doesn't exist, but that it does not exist in the numbers that have been alledged.
I wonder if it isn't more of a spectrum. There's no place where you can draw a line dividing ADHD and non-ADHD behavior, and there's been a recent tendency to move the line so as to increase the ADHD diagnoses because they can be treated with drugs rather than therapy.
Could there be a correlation between ADHD diagnosis and family income
with the wealthy suffering less because they have access to better quality and longer therapy. Perhaps it's just having better doctors that take the time to distinguish between serious ADHD that really needs drug treatment and "lesser ADHD" that will respond well to behavioral therapy or diet change etc.
quote:
Schools have changed from the nurturing establishments that they once were to little more than learning holding areas with the school administrators and teachers more interested in keeping order than teaching. Since the major source of information is comprimised, it calls into question the frequency of diagnosis.
Depends on the school. Again, I wonder if the ADHD diagnosis rate increases as class size increases and/or as school quality decreases?
quote:
I also find it odd that before there were drugs to treat this disorder, ADD/ADHD was only diagnosed in 13,000 children nationwide. But afterwards, 8 million are diagnosed.
I'll have to find some time to look up more history of ADHD. I thought Ritalin was a 50s era drug and that this goes back a ways.
quote:
Here's some other problems I have with the medication of ADHD patients.
http://www.researchmatters.harvard.edu/story.php?article_id=748
http://dir.salon.com/health/feature/2000/03/31/ritalin/index.html
The Harvard article raises a red flag about a potential problem of childhood Ritalin usage - possible increased chance of adult depression. It's a rat study, but it's the kind of research that suggests follow-up research is needed to determine the long-term effects.
I googled the author of the Salon article - Lawrence H Diller - and found his web site promoting his book and listing a lengthy bibliography of publications in medical journals. Close examination reveals most of these to be letters and not research.
Just my feeling, but I tend to trust the detached reporting of experimental results as typified by the Harvard site over the arguments advanced by someone who stands to profit from related book sales.
Overall, I think the problem has a lot of different causes ranging from our cultural tendency to go for the "quick fix" to a lack of health care to budgetary pressure on schools and more. As a result, there's no one solution.
-TW
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- TW
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 11:17:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Quite frankly, the stance that I have is not that ADHD doesn't exist, but that it does not exist in the numbers that have been alledged.
I wonder if it isn't more of a spectrum. There's no place where you can draw a line dividing ADHD and non-ADHD behavior, and there's been a recent tendency to move the line so as to increase the ADHD diagnoses because they can be treated with drugs rather than therapy.
Could there be a correlation between ADHD diagnosis and family income
with the wealthy suffering less because they have access to better quality and longer therapy. Perhaps it's just having better doctors that take the time to distinguish between serious ADHD that really needs drug treatment and "lesser ADHD" that will respond well to behavioral therapy or diet change etc.
Actually, some people are suggesting a reverse correlation with poverty and ADHD medication. So the wealthy kids are being drugged more often than the poor kids.
quote:
Overall, I think the problem has a lot of different causes ranging from our cultural tendency to go for the "quick fix" to a lack of health care to budgetary pressure on schools and more. As a result, there's no one solution.
-TW
Absolutely, there is no one solution. But I don't believe that drugging kids into pacifism is the answer either. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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