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jhee
New Member
Cayman Islands
5 Posts |
 Posted - 05/04/2004 : 22:43:10
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My first post and the reason for my joining the forum. to wit:
I am looking for some simple way of explaining "perpetual motion" to a couple of 80 year old men. Really! They believe it exists and is being surpressed by the "powers that be". Anyway, tech stuff and thermodynamic cites won't do it. Any ideas or URL referals?
Thanxz
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"get on, get off or get out the way!" |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 02:39:17 [Permalink]
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Welcome jhee!
Hmm. Something of a toughie, there. It's always hard to change a mind that's set in stone.
You cannot get more energy out than what you put in, which is what PM requires. If you could, all you'd have to do it hook up a battery to a motor running a charger with it's other work. As can readly be seen, simple friction would defeat this, and I'm sure that you know all that. I think that you need to put it in practical terms.
You might ask the gentlemen that if there are PM machines in existance, why do we not encounter them in some form or other in everyday life? Why are fuel prices so high, or indeed why are we even buying fuel at all when we could be running on free energy?
And remind them that all of these machines advertised have turned out to be scams.
Sometime today, I'll look around and see what I can find.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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jhee
New Member
Cayman Islands
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 05:24:46 [Permalink]
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| thanks filty, You said what I've said, even the same qoutes. I've found dozens of "old" papers, qoutes & comments, but no comment related to "new" proposals of PMM. |
"get on, get off or get out the way!" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 07:12:17 [Permalink]
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Ask them for evidence of either the machines or of the suppression. After all, if the technology is being suppressed, how do they know about it? I would assume these are not famous people with a lot of connections, but instead just a couple of Joes, which would make their knowledge of a suppressed technology even more improbable. And it also demonstrates that the suppression of the alleged PMMs doesn't work, so we should all be driving around in truly zero-emission vehicles and using free electricity.
In other words, the idea that there is a conspiracy to keep the technology under wraps, but that a couple of unknown people have "broken the veil," is self-defeating. The technology is either truly hidden, in which case these gentlemen know nothing about it and are guessing, or everyone knows about it and it doesn't work as advertised (which would be my bet).
Oh, and ask them if they've already "invested" in one or more "free energy" machines. If so, it's almost guaranteed that they're claiming "suppression" so they don't have to face up to the fact that they've been fleeced. If not, I'd say they're just longing for a better life, and blaming the lack thereof on the unnamed oppressors of human ingenuity.
See also the Museum of Unworkable Devices. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 08:34:22 [Permalink]
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Appeal to the cutthroat nature of corporations. Even if mega-corporations A, B, and C conspire to suppress a 'free energy' device, mega-corp D will see an oportunity for profit and will sidestep the conspiracy of silence.
Auto companies wouldn't suppress prepetual motion engines. They'd be all over rushing them into production with a "No more fill-ups" marketing campaign. Utilities would fall all over themselves to get free energy and cut reliance on oil/coal/natural gas. Especially now that they are separate generation and distribution companies, the distribution companies would go for the increased profit in a heartbeat.
If nothing else, Wal-Mart is now powerful enough to bypass all the traditional companies that you might accuse of supressing free energy. They'd be selling home free-energy generators in a New York second if they could.
Corporations DO NOT suppress profit opportunities, and free energy is pure profit.
(Would this be the "refutation via greed" argument?)
- TW
(ed to korekt my spilling) |
- TW
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| Edited by - tw101356 on 05/05/2004 09:07:42 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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jhee
New Member
Cayman Islands
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 15:51:47 [Permalink]
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more thanxxx. insightful group. HMmmmmmm? Greed, is it? just as I thought.
There's no interest without "self" interest. |
"get on, get off or get out the way!" |
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Ratbag
New Member
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 04:57:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jhee
thanks filty, You said what I've said, even the same qoutes. I've found dozens of "old" papers, qoutes & comments, but no comment related to "new" proposals of PMM.
I don't think the hucksters use 'perpetual motion machine' to sell their ideas, these days. Look up articles for 'Zero Point energy'.
Nobody buys the idea that you can get energy from nothing...........but start throwing in a few statements about 'quantum thingummy doodah' and you'll have to beat the investors off with a stick.
Rat |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 05:39:00 [Permalink]
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| What are you people talking about? I've got one in my basement. I've been using it to heat the house for ten years. |
-Chaloobi
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 07:38:47 [Permalink]
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| By the way, the US Patent office now requires a working model of a perpetual motion machine before they will issue a patent... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Vic Daring
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 08:51:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
TW wrote:quote:
(Would this be the "refutation via greed" argument?)
I like "argument from greed," myself.
Argumentum ad greedum.
Cool. |
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 13:06:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Argumentum ad greedum.
Indeed. I too, like that one.
If it can be done, sooner or later we will do it and I've small doubt that greed will be in there somewhere. Perpetual motion is such a holy grail to the uninformed that it's easy to influence their thinking and peddle all manner of crap that does exactly squat.
I've forgotten the guy's name -- I believe that Randi's featured him a time or two -- but he was, concievably still is, collecting brain damaged suckers 'investors' for one of these things. "The breakthrough is right around the corner...!" he sez (I'm paraphrasing a bit). And he demonstrates a contraption that flashes a light with no apparent wiring that any of my grandgrifters could put together for a prank.
The Laws of Thermodynamics will not be flouted (unless the price is right and the audience pliable).
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 18:59:47 [Permalink]
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Vic wrote:quote:
Argumentum ad greedum.
Actually, I could have sworn there was an argumentum ad lucre listed somewhere on a logical fallacies site, but after combing my bookmarks, I can't find it again. Although the argumentum ad lucre was "those people are rich, therefore they are correct," and not as above, "those people could make a buck, therefore they wouldn't suppress thing X" (which also isn't fallacious). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 23:03:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jhee
I am looking for some simple way of explaining "perpetual motion"
Welcome Jhee!
I have a humble suggestion; show them a toy gyroscope like this one, give it a good spin, and ask the gentlemen in question "why does it slow down and eventualy stop?". You might be able to start a good conversation and perhaps plant a little seed of doubt or two... |
Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
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Roki
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2004 : 03:24:58 [Permalink]
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Hi it's my first post too..
Well, it's a couple of old men right?
Ask them , suppose there IS a perpetual motion machine.
Then smile at them...
then ask them, how are THEY going to get any energy out of it by attaching any apparatus to it, without disrupting it's 'perpetuality'.
Hope really hard that they don't say that the apparatus are part of the perpetual motion machine then...
Or if they don't even care about that, and all they want to see is something that moves forever...
Then exclaim suddenly, "OH YES!!!! it IS possible after all, you were both right!!!
in a Frictionless, Gravityless, Vacuum environment, I could probably spin a ball, and it will continue spinning WITHOUT STOPPING for a thousand years even!"
Then they'll say "But that's not a machine!"
Then you say, well why don't you draw something and show me what you REALLY mean...
Then whatever they draw, you just point out the flaw in their picture.
They'll give up. |
It was determined that I would believe in determinism |
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gm137
New Member
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
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Topic Locked
