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thecor
New Member
Italy
27 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2004 : 11:19:42 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabus, I am not a mathmetician (or champion speller) of any skill ,but I would think that a change of distance of a few thousand miles relative to the distances involved would have little significant impact on the phenomenon. The moon is some 238,857 miles in diameter and the distance (mean?) to the sun is 93,000,000 miles. Perhaps someone here has the time and skills to make the calculations. However, if there were a significant difference then I think it would be an even "stranger convenience" that an eclipse of any significance would ever occur.
My thanks to Dave for the tip on "Broca's Brain". I will see if I can find a copy, sounds interesting.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 19:54:25 [Permalink]
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I got the following from a astronomical site:
quote:
More precisely, the Moon's orbit is elliptical: its average orbital radius is 384401 km, apogee (farthest distance from the Earth) is 406700 km, and perigee (distance of closest approach to the Earth) is 356400 km.
This seems like a pretty significant difference. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 10:39:14 [Permalink]
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| The moon is moving away from the earth currently. Eventually the lunar eclipses will no longer show a red moon. This movement away from the earth should eventually impact the look of the solar eclipse as well. Can't find the info on when this will occur. Maybe over at BA's site under bite size astronomy. I'll have to go search the archives. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 11:22:01 [Permalink]
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thecor, the calculation to be done is a simple ratio of triangles. For an eclipse to occur, the ratio of the distance to the Sun to the radius of the Sun must be equal to the ratio of the distance to the Moon to the radius of the Moon. Plugging in some average numbers for orbits, we get:150,000,000 km / 695,500 km [should equal] 384,000 km / 1737.4 km That'd be a ratio of 215.67 for the Sun, and 221.02 for the Moon. So, on average, the Moon is just a little smaller in the sky than the Sun.
However, the orbits of the Earth and Moon aren't perfectly circular, and just this year alone, the Moon will be anywhere from 357,248 km to 406,574 km from the Earth. Similarly, the distance between Earth and Sun varies from 147,000,000 km to 152,000,000 km.
The ratio for the Sun, therefore, varies from 211.36 to 218.55, and the ratio for the Moon varies from 205.62 to 234.01. And so, we can see that the apparent size of the Moon in the sky varies much more widely than the size of the Sun, and total eclipses are possible any time the Moon's ratio (distance over radius) is less than (or equal to) whatever the Sun's ratio happens to be at the time.
Also of note, due to tidal friction, the Moon is receeding away from the Earth. At the current rate of 3.82 cm per year, in about 588 million years, there won't ever be any total eclipses of the Sun by the Moon, because the Moon will always be too far away (and thus too small) to cover the Sun completely.
And yes, in the past, total eclipses were more common than they are now, as the Moon was closer to the Earth, and thus appeared larger. So, we just happen to live at a time when total eclipses are possible, but rare enough to be pretty special.
Why don't eclipses (either partial or total) happen 12 or 13 times a year? Because the Moon's orbit is tilted, and so doesn't always cross the imaginary line between the Sun and Earth necessary for a shadow to be cast on this planet. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 18:17:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
I got the following from a astronomical site:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">More precisely, the Moon's orbit is elliptical: its average orbital radius is 384401 km, apogee (farthest distance from the Earth) is 406700 km, and perigee (distance of closest approach to the Earth) is 356400 km.
This seems like a pretty significant difference.
[/quote]
That's like the guys that love to say the human eye ball isn't a perfect circle! Probubly because of gravity huh? It's circle enough for me! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 18:55:13 [Permalink]
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So the moon is 240,000 miles away from earth. If it is receeding at 3.82 cen. a year 5 billion years ago.1.50393700634
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The basic idea is this: about 4.45 billion years ago, a young planet Earth -- a mere 50 million years old at the time and not the solid object we know today-- experienced the largest impact event of its history. Another planetary body with roughly the mass of Mars had formed nearby with an orbit that placed it on a collision course with Earth. When young Earth and this rogue body collided, the energy involved was 100 million times larger than the much later event believed to have wiped out the dinosaurs. The early giant collision destroyed the rogue body, likely vaporized the upper layers of Earth's mantle, and ejected large amounts of debris into Earth orbit. Our Moon formed from this debris.
quote:
The moon is moving away from the earth currently. Eventually the lunar eclipses will no longer show a red moon. This movement away from the earth should eventually impact the look of the solar eclipse as well. Can't find the info on when this will occur. Maybe over at BA's site under bite size astronomy. I'll have to go search the archives.[/quote]
Hmmm this should have happened long ago baby!!!!
http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question38.html
If the moon had stopped in its orbit out at maybe 171,866.50 miles from earth. 4.5 billion years later the moon should be 1,000,000 miles away from earth, going away at 3.82 cen per year. If the moon had formed at 240,000 miles away it would be 1,068,133.50 miles away.
1 billion years in the past, if the moon was coming back to the earth it would be 2,637 miles from the earth, going towards us from its original state. Another 3.5 billion years and the moon would vaporize into the earth and there would be no moon! 1 billion years ago the moon could not have left! Because your fairy tale life was evolving!
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What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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| Edited by - verlch on 05/25/2004 21:17:23 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 19:20:42 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
That's like the guys that love to say the human eye ball isn't a perfect circle! Probubly because of gravity huh? It's circle enough for me!
But Catholics aren't "Christian enough" for you, huh? Where does accuracy count, and where doesn't it? If the Bible says the Earth has corners, is it okay to say that it's a sphere because that's "cubical enough" for God?quote:
So the moon is 240,000 miles away from earth. If it is receeding at 3.82 cen. a year 5 billion years ago...
Only people who think the words of the Bible are more important than the wisdom within them insist that the Moon has always been receeding at 3.82 cm per year (or more!). Those people who've actually examined the problem know that it has not always been receeding at that rate, making calculations of "impossibly" near or far Moons nothing but a joke. And a bad one, at that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 00:02:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Only people who think the words of the Bible are more important than the wisdom within them insist that the Moon has always been receeding at 3.82 cm per year (or more!). Those people who've actually examined the problem know that it has not always been receeding at that rate, making calculations of "impossibly" near or far Moons nothing but a joke. And a bad one, at that.
So your discounting scientists that say the moon is moving away from the earth at 3.82 cm a year. Then you tell me I wasn't there so how would I know. I say to you, you weren't there 460 million years ago so how do you know any missing links came before the fossilized bones we found? |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 00:15:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
That's like the guys that love to say the human eye ball isn't a perfect circle! Probubly because of gravity huh? It's circle enough for me!
It is close enough to be a triangle for me.
"Gravity is a myth. The earth sucks"" |
| Edited by - Starman on 05/26/2004 00:16:53 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 05:14:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
That's like the guys that love to say the human eye ball isn't a perfect circle! Probubly because of gravity huh? It's circle enough for me!
What does that have to do with the Moon's elliptical orbit?
Go to the optician and ask him if the human eye is a perfect circle.
Hell, it's not even a perfect sphere or globe. (Hint for the scientifically challenged: a circle is two-dimensional, a sphere or globe are 3D)
And GOD really fucked up when He created my eyes, because my eyes are more grape-shaped than spherical, which means I need glasses. -6 dioptre.
Hey, this quote is good enough for "Fundies say the darndest things". |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 05:30:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And yes, in the past, total eclipses were more common than they are now, as the Moon was closer to the Earth, and thus appeared larger. So, we just happen to live at a time when total eclipses are possible, but rare enough to be pretty special.
Thanks Dave for doing the math for me. I haven't done the calculations myself, I only realised that it was bound to happen eventually. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 06:01:29 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
So your discounting scientists that say the moon is moving away from the earth at 3.82 cm a year.
Are we having reading-comprehension problems? I wrote that the Moon is currently receeding at 3.82 cm per year. The Moon has not always been receeding at that rate, and there is, in fact, evidence that the Moon was receeding at half that rate millions of years ago. I discount none of this evidence. You are the one who is doing so.quote:
Then you tell me I wasn't there so how would I know.
I've never told you any such thing. How can you lie like that and call yourself a Christian?quote:
I say to you, you weren't there 460 million years ago so how do you know any missing links came before the fossilized bones we found?
Fine. Say you're sitting at home, and you hear a crash in another room. You go look, and find a baseball sitting on the floor amidst the shattered glass of your window, and outside you see a bunch of kids with baseball mitts and bats. By your standards, since you didn't see it happen, if you even think that those kids just broke your window, you would be making a baseless and rash accusation without merit in fact. Is that, or is that not, unreasonable?
In fact: you weren't there when the Bible was written. Therefore, you cannot possibly know - by your own standards - that it is the Word of God, either through inspiration, Divine Dictation, or any other method. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 07:23:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
So your discounting scientists that say the moon is moving away from the earth at 3.82 cm a year.
Dave never said that. You are intentionally misinterpreting him. That comes very close to lying. I would have thought that you, pretending to be a christian, should know better than that.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 07:31:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
1 billion years in the past, if the moon was coming back to the earth it would be 2,637 miles from the earth, going towards us from its original state. Another 3.5 billion years and the moon would vaporize into the earth and there would be no moon! 1 billion years ago the moon could not have left! Because your fairy tale life was evolving!
I can't make sense of what you are writing. And the formatting of your post doesn't make it any easier! Can you please elaborate your points in a more structured manner? Then I'd be happy to address it. Right now all I get is Syntax Error, and the fragments that gets partly decoded just screams "erroneous assumptions" and "logical errors". |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 09:48:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by verlch
1 billion years in the past, if the moon was coming back to the earth it would be 2,637 miles from the earth, going towards us from its original state. Another 3.5 billion years and the moon would vaporize into the earth and there would be no moon! 1 billion years ago the moon could not have left! Because your fairy tale life was evolving!
I can't make sense of what you are writing. And the formatting of your post doesn't make it any easier! Can you please elaborate your points in a more structured manner? Then I'd be happy to address it. Right now all I get is Syntax Error, and the fragments that gets partly decoded just screams "erroneous assumptions" and "logical errors".
[/quote]
If you go back in time as the moon comes towards us at 3.82 cen per year. One Billion years back in time the moon would be 2,600 some odd miles away from us! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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