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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2004 : 10:48:46
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I think Disney's position that the movie should not be released in an election year is absurd. If the movie says something important enough about US politics that it might affect the election, shouldn't it be released? Isn't information key to the democratic process? Shouldn't we see what this film has to say precisely becauseit is an election year? I say release the film, let the accusations fly, and if they're bogus, the president and his supporters will have plenty of opportunity to counter them. (In fact, they'll counter them even if they're not bogus -- truth isn't the point in US elections anymore (if it ever was). ) Even if you're a die-hard pro-Bush conservative, how can you argue that censorship has any place in public discoures - or lack there of - in the US??? Nobody's arguing that Rush and his clones should be taken off the air because it's an election year! What's the difference with Moore's film? Release the film!
That said, does anyone have a well reasoned argument against releasing the film? Has anyone seen it? I liked Bowling for Columbine quite a bit. If this is on par with that film, I'd be very interested to see it.
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-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 02:29:23 [Permalink]
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Disney---- Florida
Florida---- Gov Jeb Bush
Jeb---- Brother of G.W. Bush
Moore---- Hates G.W. Bush
Disney---- Won't distribute Moore's movie.
That make any sense at all? hehe....
Well, having said that.... Disney is not practicing due dilligence with their refusal to distribute this movie. Whomever does pick it up is going to score some serious $$. Disney made some mindless excuse about how they are a family business and won't choose to distribute movies like Moore's..... all I can say to that is... Kill Bill! (distributed by Disney) Such a great family oriented movie :P
And.... having said that.... I also have to say that M. Moore is a jackass of titanic proportions. I have no doubt that this movie, so well recieved at CANNES, is nothing more than a massive argumentum ad hom directed at G.W. Bush. People like Moore give liberals a bad name! |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 05:26:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
<snip>
And.... having said that.... I also have to say that M. Moore is a jackass of titanic proportions. I have no doubt that this movie, so well recieved at CANNES, is nothing more than a massive argumentum ad hom directed at G.W. Bush. People like Moore give liberals a bad name!
I disagree. I think Moore has done some important work over the years. And how can you be beyond a doubt at how bad this movie is if you've never seen it? And I don't think Moore gives liberalism a bad name. He's willing to point blank ask the questions everyone else just politely dances around.
Ever see a presidential news conference? Ever wish the President would actually answer the question he's asked? Ever wish the reporter would insist that he does by saying "But sir, you haven't answered my question?" Moore's that kind of guy - which is why he'll never get an interview with the President - LOL |
-Chaloobi
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 06:23:31 [Permalink]
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I mentioned in another thread that this flick will be released and it's going to make a lot of money. I would not be suprised if Doozy put it out under shareholder pressure. Shareholders do not like missing out on big profits.
I myself plan to buy the DVD.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 07:40:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
And.... having said that.... I also have to say that M. Moore is a jackass of titanic proportions. I have no doubt that this movie, so well recieved at CANNES, is nothing more than a massive argumentum ad hom directed at G.W. Bush. People like Moore give liberals a bad name!
Yep, I agree with Chaloobi here, how much would it be worth to see an interview between Bush and Moore.....would sure beat Bush and Russert. Not once have we seen the press ask Bush about the Bin Laden flights out of America the day after 9/11, the fact that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi's whay he spends so much time on holiday.......the list goes on.
Now if Clinton......let's not go there!!!!!!
If more liberals were like Moore and actually asked the questions that should asked of out leaders we wouldn't have the majority of Americans still believing Saddam was responsible for 9/11. Thank god for Air America....Al Franken is a blast.....
If his movie helps get this dumbarse and his crazies out of Washington then it can only make the world a safer place. Bush's economic policies are so terrible that he needs the "War on Terror"TM to stay in power. "I am a war President" he proudly says, history will show that this has been the most ineptly run battle since Gallipoli. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 09:12:25 [Permalink]
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Farenheit 9/11 received a 20 minute standing ovation at Cannes. Bowling for Columbine made more money than any other documentary in history. Moore gets the word out and has quite a following. If that's bad for liberalism then give me another glass!
I think Moore has just become a target himself since shooting the messenger is the best his opponents can do. The Right does fear his messages and they sure spend a lot of time blasting him. That right there tells you how important a figure for liberalism he is. He is probably more populist than liberal although both tents share common ground a lot of the time.
Farenheit 9/11 has had some very favorable reviews and I think Moore has become a sort of spokesman for people that feel they have no voice. No one will please everyone and Moore is no different but he goes the extra mile to bring important issues into the media's eye and for that we should all be thankful.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 12:11:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
And how can you be beyond a doubt at how bad this movie is if you've never seen it?
I didn't say the movie would be bad. Moore is a good filmmaker. There is no question that the movie will be making alot of money.
quote:
Moore gets the word out and has quite a following. If that's bad for liberalism then give me another glass!
The word, you say? You mean, his own radical personal distorted view gets presented in his films. Moore is possibly LESS objective in his films than the radical christian right is with their propaganda. He has an agenda, and the WORD he's getting out is only in support of it.
quote:
If more liberals were like Moore and actually asked the questions that should asked of out leaders we wouldn't have the majority of Americans still believing Saddam was responsible for 9/11.
Again, Moore isn't any more interested in the truth than G.W. Bush is. Moore doesn't present objective information in his FAKE documentaries, he presents his own personal views using current events as his presentation medium. I would agree, however, that more people should become involved in the political process and demand accountability from our politicians on all levels.
quote:
Bush's economic policies are so terrible that he needs the "War on Terror"TM to stay in power. "I am a war President" he proudly says, history will show that this has been the most ineptly run battle since Gallipoli.
If what your attempting to say is... Bush wouldn't know a sound economic policy if it bit him in the ass.... I'd agree somewhat. If, also, what your saying is that the invasion of Iraq was and is a hinderance in the actual finding and capture/killing of terrorists... I'd agree fully. If, again, what your saying is that the campaign in Iraq has been ineptly managed.... I'd also agree fully.
quote:
The Right does fear his messages and they sure spend a lot of time blasting him. That right there tells you how important a figure for liberalism he is.
Of course the right fears his message. But to claim that as evidence of him being an important figure for liberalism.... Can I refer you to any number of the easily accessable essays on the internet that summarize critical thinking and fallacies?
Moore is a radical, and quite frankly deserves no more attention than you'd pay to his rightwing counterparts like Rush and Robertson.
Why does the right fear Moore's message? It probably has something to do with the FACT that they know how effective this type of thing can be. They use the same tactics (sensationalism and distortion of facts) to great success. As somebody already pointed out.... Bush has a huge number of people believing that Saddam = 9/11 terrorist. It's a very effective tool to sway public opinion. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 12:49:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
He has an agenda, and the WORD he's getting out is only in support of it.
You say this like it's a problem to me. We all have our agendas and Moore and I share more than a few. Moore is advancing the agendas of many, many people with his work.
Again, this is not a problem. If I may quote Martha Stewart:
It's a good thing
quote:
Why does the right fear Moore's message? It probably has something to do with the FACT that they know how effective this type of thing can be.
Isn't that basically what I said? So Moore is going to bat for the liberal left. He hits some home runs and sometimes he whiffs. At least he fights the good fight for many that share his viewpoint. As you say, Moore is a radical but you know what? Radicals get shit done.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 13:05:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Farenheit 9/11 received a 20 minute standing ovation at Cannes. Bowling for Columbine made more money than any other documentary in history. Moore gets the word out and has quite a following. If that's bad for liberalism then give me another glass!
I think Moore has just become a target himself since shooting the messenger is the best his opponents can do. The Right does fear his messages and they sure spend a lot of time blasting him. That right there tells you how important a figure for liberalism he is. He is probably more populist than liberal although both tents share common ground a lot of the time.
Farenheit 9/11 has had some very favorable reviews and I think Moore has become a sort of spokesman for people that feel they have no voice. No one will please everyone and Moore is no different but he goes the extra mile to bring important issues into the media's eye and for that we should all be thankful.
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The only thing I really have a problem with Moore with is the lenghts to get to some of the whiffs. I'll listen to Moore for a longer period than Limbaugh but I'll also research his claims for accuracy. I think that it dilutes his message. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 14:14:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does the right fear Moore's message? It probably has something to do with the FACT that they know how effective this type of thing can be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't that basically what I said?
No... what you said was that because the right fears his message somehow this makes Moore an important figure for liberals. Do I need to point out the fallacies here? You are an admin for a skeptic message board....
The right's criticism of Moore does NOT mean that Moore is quote:
and important figure for liberalism
. It means (maybe) that they recognise that Moore might have some impact on the number of people who can be motivated to VOTE.
The radical right and left in this country share many common traits. Mainly, their frequently demonstrated inability to think critically about any issue. Their brains work in the same way, they just differ in their dogma. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 22:54:12 [Permalink]
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Swedish Television is airing episodes of "The Awful Truth".
With each and every episode I understand more and more why the American establishment hates Michael Moore. And I just LOVE it. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 23:42:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
I think Disney's position that the movie should not be released in an election year is absurd. If the movie says something important enough about US politics that it might affect the election, shouldn't it be released? Isn't information key to the democratic process
You are absolutely right. The film should be seen. Freedom of speech and all that crud.
But the key word is IF. Or should I say, 'Important'. In his other film(s) Moore has lied.......or if you prefer, misrepsented the truth.
His films are 'for entertainment purpous' only. They are not documentries. They are propaganda.
People should see anything they want to, as long as they realize some of it.......moore or less...... isn't information. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2004 : 23:44:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
With each and every episode I understand more and more why the American establishment hates Michael Moore
Can you define American Establishment please?
Because, as far as I can see, the people who hate Moore are his opposite numbers on the radical right. And if that somehow constitutes American Establishment in your mind.... then perhaps you need to bust out the Balogney Detection Kit(tm) and examine the propaganda your TV is feeding you.
Yes, the current president happens to be one of those far-right religious fundies.... but these people are not representative of the entire country. Not representative of even a simple majority (if you understand how our electoral process works you comprehend how that is possible).
And..... as an American I object to the American Establishment being classified as radical rightwing conservatives. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 00:02:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
<snip>
And.... having said that.... I also have to say that M. Moore is a jackass of titanic proportions. I have no doubt that this movie, so well recieved at CANNES, is nothing more than a massive argumentum ad hom directed at G.W. Bush. People like Moore give liberals a bad name!
I disagree. I think Moore has done some important work over the years. And how can you be beyond a doubt at how bad this movie is if you've never seen it? And I don't think Moore gives liberalism a bad name. He's willing to point blank ask the questions everyone else just politely dances around.
Moore does important work?
You are right though, he might ask and keep after someone for answers to questions people want answers for BUT with propagandist editing those answers don't exactly come out honestly. After all, it's not a press confrence or an interview, it's a movie. A MOVIE, not a documentry. (not having seen this new one, I'm asumming it's just like the others which do fit my description)
quote:
Ever see a presidential news conference? Ever wish the President would actually answer the question he's asked? Ever wish the reporter would insist that he does by saying "But sir, you haven't answered my question?" Moore's that kind of guy - which is why he'll never get an interview with the President - LOL
Not getting answers is not exclusive to P. Bush. It happens almost all the time. Bugs the hell out of me. And not only to the left, right or middle......anyone being interviewed seems to want to drift into their agenda without getting to the point of the original question. Takes a very good reporter to bring the person back. I have been noticing a few trying to do that now but not enough. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2004 : 00:07:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
Yep, I agree with Chaloobi here, how much would it be worth to see an interview between Bush and Moore
LOL, I'd pay to see that, if I could aford to.
A moron and an idiot trying to talk to each other. That's harlious.
Both having the words of the other going over their head. |
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