|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2004 : 07:54:52
|
I don't remember where I got this link, so I apologize if I got it here, but I was looking for comments from you all about this woman. First of all, it's good to know that people people really do learn.
But I think her criticisms are lame. She says that skeptics are not respectful. Granted, there are those few that are childish, I've had those moments, but calling someone a quack if it's true is not the wrong thing to do in my opinion. Reminds me of all the talk I heard about Madalyn Murray O'Hair being nasty on her appearances on Phil Donahue. I'm sure she was nasty in her private life, but I'm talking about her appearances on Phil Donahue, Christians would scream at her and tell her how nasty she was, and she was being very polite. The Christians were the ones going nuts.
http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/new-age.html
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 08:53:28 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Gorgo:
But I think her criticisms are lame.
I wish I had more time to spend on this. I know exactly what she is talking about when I think back on discussions I have had with my brother, a major new ager. The New Age has been the focus of more than one of my essays, and I can honestly say I think what she has written here is important.
More on this when I have the time. I suggest we all read the article... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
 |
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 08:57:50 [Permalink]
|
I think it's important. I'm looking forward to your comments Kil, and am looking forward to future writings on the subject by this author.
My wife and most of my friends are New Agers. I used to almost sort of be in that category as well. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 11:13:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
One thing I'll be sure to stress is the fact that there is actually more beauty, wonder, brilliance, and mystery in science than there is in the mystical world.
I couldn't agree more 
She does have a point with her observation that it's all but impossible for a skeptic to communicate with the faithfull (of any sort really, not just new-agers).
I'm not sure that she will have any better result with the feminine/caring approach (as opposed to the alleged sarcastic approach) however.
People have to have a desire to communicate with one another before the attempt can be made. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 12:06:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I don't remember where I got this link, so I apologize if I got it here, but I was looking for comments from you all about this woman. First of all, it's good to know that people people really do learn.
But I think her criticisms are lame. She says that skeptics are not respectful. Granted, there are those few that are childish, I've had those moments, but calling someone a quack if it's true is not the wrong thing to do in my opinion. Reminds me of all the talk I heard about Madalyn Murray O'Hair being nasty on her appearances on Phil Donahue. I'm sure she was nasty in her private life, but I'm talking about her appearances on Phil Donahue, Christians would scream at her and tell her how nasty she was, and she was being very polite. The Christians were the ones going nuts.
http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/new-age.html
First of all, she confuses the Newage movement with New Age thought and spirituality. Newage rhymes with sewage, and for good reason. (The Whole Life Expo which I have attended as little more than a bemused spectator is an example of Newage thought and crystal/pseudoscience peddling)
New Age thought and spirituality is no different than any other religion. It has assumptions and beliefs which are not scientifically provable. They are not in the business of selling "miracle cures", "magical crystals", or a myriad of pseudoscience gadgets for the low, low price of $3,000 USD. They are in the business of providing spiritual guidance to adherents.
Articles which blur the line between Newage and New Age kinda get my hackles up. It's not a fair comparison. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 12:47:34 [Permalink]
|
| They mix together and there are no clear lines. They go together. New Age "spirituality" can cost as much with counselors and psychics and horoscope readings and New Agers/New Thoughters make the crap and write the books and sell it to New Agers/New Thoughters. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 13:17:58 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
They mix together and there are no clear lines. They go together. New Age "spirituality" can cost as much with counselors and psychics and horoscope readings and New Agers/New Thoughters make the crap and write the books and sell it to New Agers/New Thoughters.
Ah, no.
New Age spirituality does not have counselors, psychics (that charge) or horoscope readers (that charge). There are opinion books put out by authors such as Starhawk and Masdrak(sp). These list the workings of New Age religion, and not "Newage spirituality".
Again, you are blurring Newage traits and New Age spirituality.
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 13:27:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
blurring Newage traits and New Age spirituality.
A difference like the difference between a liberal protestant and a fundamentalist pentocostal? One is rational, one is not, but both profess belief without evidence in the supernatural? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 13:43:04 [Permalink]
|
| Guess I don't know anything about it then, Val. Maybe you could show me a web site or two that tells me the difference. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 13:59:47 [Permalink]
|
The New Age is driven by anecdotal evidence. My brother has explained to me time and time again that it really doesn't matter what we, as skeptics, think is not possible. If it works, it works. He has many stories that seem to demonstrate beyond question that what he does works. Homeopathics work. Not because they can work, but because they do work. To him, it isn't really important that they cannot work. It is unimportant to him that in order for them to work they have to defy what we know about chemistry and physics. What is important to him is that they do work. He is not a stupid man. He is working from within a paradigm that makes perfect sense to him. Do what works and reject what doesn't work. Common sense...
We reject anecdotal evidence as being unreliable and unscientific. It doesn't matter to us if thousands of people swear to the efficacy of homeopathics or any of the hundreds of New Age claims. We demand a higher degree of supporting evidence. We demand that the evidence be supported by scientific studies. We demand that there can be no other explanation for why something might appear to work before we will sign on to it. We come from a whole other way of evaluating claims than the New Age does. I believe our methods are superior to theirs. I do not believe that the truth of a claim is up for election, as they do. I don't even regard my own first hand observation of anything out of the ordinary as reliable, without considering as many possible explanations, for what seemed to be, as I can.
Perhaps taking a somewhat superior tone while regarding the New Age is unavoidable. We see the foolishness of magical thinking. We see the dangers of it. We cannot understand why they don't see themselves as we see them. So it is very easy to dismiss them as a bunch of loons. I have done it. You have done it. I mean, their ideas are crazy, right? Exactly how many in the New Age will want to listen to what we have to say while we are telling them that what they believe is nuts? Really, the same goes for creationists and religion in general.
I think Karla McLaren makes some great points that are worth pondering. We need to learn how to better communicate our way of looking at things if we ever want a new ager to consider our views.
It could be that that is not possible. I don't know. Perhaps making critical thinking skills mandatory in public education is the way to go. But, If I am going to debate a New Ager it might be helpful if I could find a way to not sound condescending while trying to persuade them that what I believe is clearly a superior way of thinking...
quote:
Valiant Dancer:
First of all, she confuses the Newage movement with New Age thought and spirituality. Newage rhymes with sewage, and for good reason. (The Whole Life Expo which I have attended as little more than a bemused spectator is an example of Newage thought and crystal/pseudoscience peddling)
I have been to The Whole life Expo too. Many times in fact. I have also attended many other "New Age" events. Yes, newage was there. The problem is that the New Age, as you define it, is very tolerant of what goes on at these events. So much so that I do believe they can be called under the same banner. The people selling crystals are, for the most part, sincere in their belief that crystals work, and those people do identify themselves as New Age. At this point I do not think Newage and New Age can be separated. That would be like saying creationists are not Christians because not all Christians believe in a literal translation of Genesis...
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2004 : 14:16:26 [Permalink]
|
It's also important that whatever the cure is, it not be approved by "mainstream" science. If it is, then something else must be found that's better.
It's amazing the number of things that people buy that cure everything. Hulda Clark's "Cure for all Diseases" is found next to books on every other panacea that ever existed.
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 06:39:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Guess I don't know anything about it then, Val. Maybe you could show me a web site or two that tells me the difference.
Unfourtunately, the differences between the two as discussed in Wicca are not recorded on the web. Wicca accepts that they are a New Age religion, but rejects the pseudoscience of the Whole Life Expo and other gathering where the main point is to make a buck.
http://www.cog.org/general/iabout.html
It is frustrating to have a more rational religion bunched in with the flakes, charlitans, and flim-flam artists who spout crap about crystals, tantric healing, and psychic revalation on demand. In the optional beliefs of divination, it is stressed that any revelation is a snapshot of how things are currently going and decisions made now may change the future.
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 07:28:02 [Permalink]
|
Val wrote:quote:
It is frustrating to have a more rational religion bunched in with the flakes, charlitans, and flim-flam artists who spout crap about crystals, tantric healing, and psychic revalation on demand.
Every Wiccan (save one) that I've knowingly encountered (who told me they were Wiccan, at some point in time) has been one of those spouting crap, and I used to spout crap of my own (but was never Wiccan). My whole crowd spouted crap, and a high percentage of them were Wiccan. So, I don't think it's so much that Wicca is "bunched in with" the crap-spouters, but rather that people who believe in pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo will be drawn to Wicca. Wicca has a "public face" which sorta fits right in with the rest of the crap.
NPR recently ran a week-long series on "new" or small religions, and Wicca got the final day's program. The "leaders" of the movement who were interviewed by NPR were definitely talking about casting spells, energy work and other New-Agey crappola. It didn't come across as much more rational than the folks on the day before, the Pentacostal speakers-in-tongues. It's just the Wiccans did much less shrieking and falling on the floor. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 07:41:50 [Permalink]
|
Even if we consider Wicca to be a completely science-based undertaking, it is only a small part of the New Age umbrella, isn't it?
Last New Age fair I went to was hosted by the local Wiccans. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 08:59:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Even if we consider Wicca to be a completely science-based undertaking, it is only a small part of the New Age umbrella, isn't it?
It would be folly to claim that it is science based. Lets just say that it isn't anti-science or ignorant of science.
quote:
Last New Age fair I went to was hosted by the local Wiccans.
Local Wiccan groups tend to be small. I wonder if they were members of COG. (Not all are.) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 09:04:47 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Val wrote:quote:
It is frustrating to have a more rational religion bunched in with the flakes, charlitans, and flim-flam artists who spout crap about crystals, tantric healing, and psychic revalation on demand.
Every Wiccan (save one) that I've knowingly encountered (who told me they were Wiccan, at some point in time) has been one of those spouting crap, and I used to spout crap of my own (but was never Wiccan). My whole crowd spouted crap, and a high percentage of them were Wiccan. So, I don't think it's so much that Wicca is "bunched in with" the crap-spouters, but rather that people who believe in pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo will be drawn to Wicca. Wicca has a "public face" which sorta fits right in with the rest of the crap.
NPR recently ran a week-long series on "new" or small religions, and Wicca got the final day's program. The "leaders" of the movement who were interviewed by NPR were definitely talking about casting spells, energy work and other New-Agey crappola. It didn't come across as much more rational than the folks on the day before, the Pentacostal speakers-in-tongues. It's just the Wiccans did much less shrieking and falling on the floor.
Unfourtunately, the media focuses on the real flakes in any religion. Also, to people unfamiliar with the religion (especially when listening to those who assume that the audience has some knowledge of the concepts within their own religion) casting spells and energy work would seem odd/scientifically unsound. When placed in context of the concepts of the religion whereby "spells" are actually akin to prayers and "energy work" is a concept used to focus ones mind to the internal change we want to happen, it gains a little more rationality. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
