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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2004 : 11:38:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
A compelling sense of stewardship must come through religion.
I think the exact opposite is true. If you could completely remove religion from the planet, it would be so much easier for people to learn to thin rationally.
quote:
I must add that I consider religion to be an emotional force. It certainly is not a rational force. Emotion is a far greater force for behavior than is reason in my judgement.
Emotion is a greater force for the deliberate manipulation of behavior. Emotional manipulation of behavior is a very dishonest approach. It is extremely effective however, just look around at what religion can convince people to do.... the examples are manifold. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 12:58:28 [Permalink]
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When I say others accept only reason I mean we who are not religious recognize only reason will give us access to knowledge.
Religion has been a powerful force for thousands of years. Religion recognizes that their congergation needs constant reinforcement and religion provides that constant update. We who are not religious might learn something from religion insofar as recognizing the psychology of people and responding to that recognition.
What I suggest that if religion made it a dogma that it is god's will that we concern our self with the stewardship of this planet then the church people will obey that dogma. But you could try to convince people of a reason to care about future generations and you would be out of luck. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 13:07:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
But you could try to convince people of a reason to care about future generations and you would be out of luck.
This is a mighty bold assertion that needs a whole lot of backing up. Where is your support for such a statement? I find it to be a ridiculous statement. You also are saying that religious people are without reason which I find to be fairly amusing. I personally believe that people that are not religious who do care about the world and future generations just because it's the right thing to do and without the fear that some god is breathing down their neck is much more passionate and serious about it. But what you are saying is poorly reasoned. You don't even bother to support your argument.
@ |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 13:20:54 [Permalink]
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I think the gist of what he is saying is:
Appeals to emotion (like religion) are more effective than appeals to reason when attempting to encourage a specific behavior. As a general premise, refering to people as a whole, I can agree with that.
Examples? 2000 presidential election.(critical thinking was dumped right out the window in this campaign, see 527 activities in SC Republican primary for details)
The % of people who profess religious belief compared to the number who profess to be atheists. (the % of atheists is what, 10%? can't remember exactly)
People who fly planes into buildings. (I don't think reason could convince somebody to do it) |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 15:35:34 [Permalink]
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| Thanks Dude. Things that appear obvious to me evidently do not appear obvious to many others. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 20:59:06 [Permalink]
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coberst, I believe I've understood what you've been saying. Let me try to put the gist of it in my own words: because emotions are very powerful motivators, more powerful for most people than reason, and at the heart of religion, the people who give a damn about the long-term consequences of today's activities should be attempting to use an emotional, religious appeal in order to get more people on the "stewardship" bandwagon.
If that is your argument, allow me to continue:
Point one: I would like to see a world free from superstition, and so I - and I am just speaking for myself here - cannot condone or otherwise promote the "use" of religion for even decent goals. This is my emotions talking, but to be seen as a hypocrite when hypocrisy gets on my damn nerves so much would be devestating to my self-esteem.
Point two: To be successful world-wide, your plan would - today - entail the "editing" of Christianity, Hindism and Islam, the "big three" which, combined, are followed by some 70% of the world's population. I know that Christianity doesn't have anything worthwhile to build on, but am not knowledgable enough on the other two to know if there are many "stewardship traits" in them (and I'm talking about the basic beliefs, not small sects within the "umbrella" of the religion's name). I see tremendous difficulties in building stewardship into Christianity alone, as it would take another rewrite of the Bible, something that's unlikely to happen at this late date, post-Gutenberg. It is my feeling that it would be easier to get people to embrace stewardship through reason alone, or by making the non-religious but thoroughly-emotional appeal to wasters and bio-destroyers that they are killing their own grandchildren.
Point three: the only "successful" invented and entirely new religion of late (if leaving the "big three" alone is the preferred course of action, see above) appears to be Scientology, which claims a paltry 600,000 adherents, or 0.001% of the population. I still think reason or non-religious-but-emotional appeals would be easier.
In short, I can see where you're coming from (I hope), but I don't think you're going to get there, and won't help you try. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 04:41:27 [Permalink]
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Exactly Dave you stated my understanding accuratly and I appreciate your help in clarifying the matter.
My essay was a mental voyage. I must reluctantly recognize that we are not stewards we will never be good stewards. I conclude that there is little likelyhood of our species having a long future.
I would like to make an observation regarding your religious views. My conclusion is that people who identify themself as athiest are in reality anti-thiest. They are not driven by belief that god does not exist they are driven by a strong antagonism toward people who so believe. I wish this were not the case but it appears to me that it is true.
Just so you know, I am an agnostic. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 06:07:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
My conclusion is that people who identify themself as athiest are in reality anti-thiest. They are not driven by belief that god does not exist they are driven by a strong antagonism toward people who so believe. I wish this were not the case but it appears to me that it is true.
I could write an essay on this....
But I have to say that you are totally wrong coberst.
Some atheists may indeed have a strong antagonism for theists, but to say that most are driven by this.... shows a monumental misunderstanding on your part. I am an atheist, I do not have any particularly antagonistic feeling towards any entire group of people. Some, like those who advocate ID and literal creationism, I find infuriating. Doesn't mean that I'm antagonistic to everyone who believes in god.... The same applies, I think, to most atheists.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 07:01:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
My conclusion is that people who identify themself as athiest are in reality anti-thiest. They are not driven by belief that god does not exist they are driven by a strong antagonism toward people who so believe. I wish this were not the case but it appears to me that it is true.
I could write an essay on this....
But I have to say that you are totally wrong coberst.
Some atheists may indeed have a strong antagonism for theists, but to say that most are driven by this.... shows a monumental misunderstanding on your part. I am an atheist, I do not have any particularly antagonistic feeling towards any entire group of people. Some, like those who advocate ID and literal creationism, I find infuriating. Doesn't mean that I'm antagonistic to everyone who believes in god.... The same applies, I think, to most atheists.
I would think there is no basis for conflict at all until the Faithful try to legislate their beliefs onto society as a whole. I.E. School prayer, anti-abortion, evolution out of schools, stem cell and other research bans . . . . |
-Chaloobi
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 07:44:19 [Permalink]
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| You very well might be correct Dude. I have spent some time wondering through various forums and based on this experience developed my conclusion. I was very surprised at my discovery but my sample was not sufficient perhaps to cause me to make such a broad generalization. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 08:07:24 [Permalink]
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| I love theists as well as non-theists. That's why I don't want them to continue to delude themselves, or attempt to brainwash others. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 17:59:01 [Permalink]
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| Coberst, I think that there is alot of conflict between the fundamental theists and those who advocate critical thinking. Often those on either side are contemptfull of the other. Most of what you find out on the internet is conflict between the vocal portions of these groups. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 21:36:10 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
Exactly Dave you stated my understanding accuratly and I appreciate your help in clarifying the matter.
My essay was a mental voyage. I must reluctantly recognize that we are not stewards we will never be good stewards. I conclude that there is little likelyhood of our species having a long future.
Well, I'm glad I got your position correctly, but I sure don't share your pessimism. In fact, it's precisely that sort of "nothing I do will matter" attitude which I was protesting earlier in this thread. Reason may be weaker than emotion, but it's not impotent.
Cheer for the freakin' underdog, man. The other options appear to be giving up in despair, or whining, both of which waste our time here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 12:36:09 [Permalink]
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| Amen Brother |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 14:22:59 [Permalink]
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| 6 Billion stewards of the earth and counting... |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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