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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2004 : 13:42:10
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Recently President Bush informed us of a decision he had made regarding governmental funding for certain types of medical research. He was forced into confronting this issue by the successes of the science of molecular biology. As he prepared himself to make this decision he consulted with experts in the disciplines of ethics, theology, science, philosophy, and politics.
Science is constantly forcing us to examine our fundamental concepts and to make decisions, which we find ourselves unprepared to make. Technology develops at a very rapid pace in seemingly automatic mode. The human capacity for growth in scientific expertise is breath taking because each generation stands upon the shoulders of each past generation and because we have discovered the “magic” of mathematics. The new generation begins where the past generation leaves off. The new generation need not go back and “reinvent the wheel” but can construct upon the structure just finished by those who have gone before. One might think of science, as scaffolding which is under constant construction wherein each scientist can always begin her days work on the very top of the structure.
Now examine the development of expertise in the fields of ethics, theology, philosophy and politics. Every day everyone starts more or less in virtually the same position as their predecessors did fifty years ago, perhaps in the same position as their predecessors did one hundred years ago maybe even twenty five hundred years. The accumulated uncontested knowledge in these disciplines when compared to science is virtually nonexistent. Individuals working in these fields are constantly discarding the results of the past and “reinventing the wheel”.
It seems that human kind has two capabilities in knowledge development: the development of technology (which I define as the implementation of scientific knowledge) and the development of understanding/wisdom/judgement. I do not have a good word for this understanding/wisdom/judgement and will call it wisdom. The disciplines that try to deal in wisdom are the humanities such as ethics, philosophy, theology, history, political science and others that do not come to mind. Human kind is very good in the development of technology and very bad in the development of wisdom and the rate of development of the former is like a thousand times faster than that of the latter.
Technology has placed in the hands of human kind the ability to destroy itself and the planet. The wisdom of human kind is unable to keep up and the end, I predict, is predictable.
[Moved to General Skepticism - Dave W.]
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 05:04:45 [Permalink]
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The natural sciences function under the guidance of the scientific method. The scientific method leads to paradigms, which leads to algorithms, all augmented by mathematics resulting in exponential growth.
The human sciences function under ambiguous methodology. This lack of method leads to no paradigms or algorithms, all lacking any mathematical tools resulting in chaotic progress that meanders for centuries about a base line.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 17:15:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
As he prepared himself to make this decision he consulted with experts in the disciplines of ethics, theology, science, philosophy, and politics.
Please allow me to say..... bullshit.
quote:
The wisdom of human kind is unable to keep up and the end, I predict, is predictable.
Once again you create a chain of faulty causation (I'm assuming your predicting a bad end for us all....). Also, you make the assumption that the science of ethics/philosophy/ect necessarily should contain the same ammount of info, and have that volume of information expand as fast, as the physical sciences do.
Because of the subjective nature of fields like philosophy and ethics it is much more difficult to come to a concensus on new ideas.
If you want to read some really good philosophy from a modern philosopher.... go pick up a book or two by John Rawls. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 17:25:35 [Permalink]
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| I have read Rawls on Justice and I agree he is great. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 02:33:12 [Permalink]
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The guy was a freakin genius. I hope to see more of his ideas put into practice before I die  |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 12:32:44 [Permalink]
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| Amen brother |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 06:02:52 [Permalink]
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| Here in the US we spent over half a century researching technologies to build Fission bombs, then Fusion bombs, then Neutron bombs (because sometimes you just want to kill the people). Then, of course there's nerve gas - becaue the mustard gas and phosgene just weren't lethal enough - and various biological weapons (this is more dangerous than it sounds but I can't thin of a smart ass remark here - Dave W?). And then in the 80's we started working out ways to upset the MAD ballance by researching star wars - afterall, what fun is it having all these nuclear weapons when you don't dare use them? And then comes along stem cell research - a technology that has the greatest medical potential since bread mold sterilized the petri dish - and GW Bush halts THAT research because he believes it's IMMORAL! Ok, where's my insanity emoticon? DAVE W - this is why I need an insanity emoticon! |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 06/29/2004 06:04:04 |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 11:53:42 [Permalink]
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| I agree it is a puzzelment |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 12:32:16 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi wrote:quote:
Ok, where's my insanity emoticon? DAVE W - this is why I need an insanity emoticon!
Go find a free insanity emoticon, and send it to @tomic, the webmaster. I started looking for freebies, but got sidetracked by the real world. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 22:18:03 [Permalink]
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coberstquote:
"Science is constantly forcing us to examine our fundamental concepts and to make decisions, which we find ourselves unprepared to make."
"One might think of science, as scaffolding which is under constant construction wherein each scientist can always begin their days work on the very top of the structure."
(edited for comfort)
Interesting post with some delightful insights. Have thought along similar lines often enough. While being totally sincere, raised the issue, that we, humanity, should develope a 'science of leader selection,' although don't believe anyone took me serious about it at the time. Its the same static situation for the forms of social construction as well. Then it struck me one day, that those who enjoy their current place on the top of the heap, getting the best of everthing there is to be had on this mudball, and having a great deal of influence upon the direction humanity's efforts will be applied, probably like things just fine as they are...
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 12:26:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan
While being totally sincere, raised the issue, that we, humanity, should develope a 'science of leader selection,' although don't believe anyone took me serious about it at the time. Its the same static situation for the forms of social construction as well.
I have occationally entertained the idea that enlightened despotism would be better than democracy.
Democracy in it's ideal form, well all ideologies in their ideal form are good ways to govern a country, in one asprc or the other.
Soviet and Albanian despotism managed to tarnish communism, and China is very close behind. The main fault in those cases, the despotism came because of person cults and the belief that the system was infallible.
Unfortunatly, I see the same thing happening in the United States. A single person, put in place of power is building a person cult, while at the same time tries to grab as much power as possible. And the proponents' faith in the political system's inherent infallibility makes them blind to similarities between this democracy and the old "communist" states.
I hope that you guys can reassure me that I'm wrong, and point out to me what parts of this reasoning is flawed. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 12:34:25 [Permalink]
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NubiWan
I agree. Those who are in the drivers seat certainly do not wish to change direction. There is a constant struggle by those who are comfortable with the present situation and those who see something better and wish to change things a bit. Of course both sides of this equation can be charged with self-interest. But it is a standard situation and we are all better if we recognize this reality. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 12:39:02 [Permalink]
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Dr Mabuse
The one problem I see in your statement is the reference to an enlightened despot. I suspect that such an individual is rare. I have been reading Gibbon on the Roman Empire and it seems that occassionally there was such an individual but so often they were a disaster
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 20:02:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Chaloobi wrote:quote:
Ok, where's my insanity emoticon? DAVE W - this is why I need an insanity emoticon!
Go find a free insanity emoticon, and send it to @tomic, the webmaster. I started looking for freebies, but got sidetracked by the real world.
Dave W - You can't possibly be suggesting I lift a finger to provide succor for my own hysterical complaints. That's what administrators are for afterall.... |
-Chaloobi
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