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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2004 : 11:52:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Well, the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths. Mithra died, was buried in a cave, and was resurected 3 days later... long before jesus. It was the religion popular with the Roman legions, and it was just coopted by early christians.
Also of note is the birthday of Invuctus Sol (the sungod worshiped by Emperor Constantine), December 25th. It was Constantine who forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD. This is the time it was decided that Jesus was god, and all other versions supressed.
Rubish!
What part of it? Give us uninformed a clue...
I'd actually like backup for both claims. I've heard several theories of where the life of Jesus was derived from (from 'the gospels are totally true' to 'the gospels are complete fiction'). Any sources for both parts? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 14:41:25 [Permalink]
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Here's some backup light:
http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/chrorig.html
I selected this link because the text was written by a minister. The DaVinci Code, though trendy, is also interesting reading.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 20:44:29 [Permalink]
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Any college textbook on western humanities (well, any public college or non-christian private) will have information concerning the parallels between Mithraism and Christianity.
http://www.occultopedia.com/m/mithra.htm
In a nutshell, Mithra was imported to the Roman Empire by the legions after they returned from various campaigns against Persia. Mithra fought the bull of heaven and saved mankind from darkness... ect... The influence on the formation of christianity is pretty clear when you examine both religions.
Emperor Constantine (who cnverted to christianity only on his deathbed, the first Roman Emperor to be a christian) was a worshiper of Sol Invictus and was in turn worshiped as the embodiment of that god.
http://www.toolong.com/sol.htm
This one doesn't list sources, but the basic description is fair. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 20:53:39 [Permalink]
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http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion/deities/mithra.htm
A more detailed article on the subject. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 08:08:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Well, the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths. Mithra died, was buried in a cave, and was resurected 3 days later... long before jesus. It was the religion popular with the Roman legions, and it was just coopted by early christians.
Also of note is the birthday of Invuctus Sol (the sungod worshiped by Emperor Constantine), December 25th. It was Constantine who forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD. This is the time it was decided that Jesus was god, and all other versions supressed.
Rubish!
What part of it? Give us uninformed a clue...
I'd actually like backup for both claims. I've heard several theories of where the life of Jesus was derived from (from 'the gospels are totally true' to 'the gospels are complete fiction'). Any sources for both parts?
The naive "the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths" mantra is an oft repeated piece of weblegend dismissed by Clauss' authoritative The Roman Cult of Mithras for lack of evidence. There was an interesting iidb thread which, despite the awkward appearance of some html code, remains worth reading.
That "Mithra died, was buried in a cave, and was resurected 3 days later" is wholly unsubstantiated.
That "the birthday of Invuctus Sol (the sungod worshiped by Emperor Constantine), [was] December 25th" is a fact of underwhelming significance. It is reasonably addressed here.
That "Constantine ... forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD" is, to the best of my knowledge, unevidenced.
That " 325AD ... is the time it was decided that Jesus was god" is simplistic at best. The issue addressed at the Council of Nicea was that of the trinity - the nature of God's substance, the nature of the Son's substance, and whether or not these were identical (e.g., consubstantial (homoousios) ), along with the related issue of whether or not Jesus existed before being 'begotten'. While the Arian opposion argued that Jesus was a lesser, created God, his divinity was not at issue. The Catholic Encyclopaedia, for example, notes: "A creed was drawn up on behalf of the Arian party by Eusebius of Caesarea in which every term of honour and dignity, except the oneness of substance, was attributed to Our Lord. Clearly, then, no other test save the Homoousion would prove a match for the subtle ambiguities of language that, then as always, were eagerly adopted by dissidents from the mind of the Church.".
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 10:20:00 [Permalink]
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| Definitely. I think I'll dive in it a little bit when I get back to the Netherlands. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 11:10:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Much better than a huffy "Rubish!"
Thank you.
Actually, it was intended as a terse, dismissive as opposed to the huffier or the overly crude ... roughly equivalent to: Why don't you get off your dumb ass and actually read a real book?
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 15:58:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
The naive "the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths" mantra is an oft repeated piece of weblegend dismissed by Clauss' authoritative The Roman Cult of Mithras for lack of evidence.
Mithraism is substanially older than christianity. When the religions are compared, the similarity is enough that it would be considered a copyright infringment nowdays. Early christians borrowed heavily.
quote:
That "Constantine ... forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD" is, to the best of my knowledge, unevidenced.
Constantine gathered the various church leaders in Nicea. It's not as if you refused a request of the emperor in those days if you wanted to live, so his request for a gathering can be viewed as a command.
Constantine fed, housed, and entertained the representatives once they arrived in Nicea.
Constantine chaired the two month long event.
Constantine set the agenda for the meeting.
Those who insisted on maintaining the Arian Heresy were exiled, excommunicated, and/or executed.
Can you make any statement that would say the various church leaders would have gathered on their own to discuss the things discussed at Nicea? Can you say that, if it happened, they would have ever come to an agreement? Constantine forced it. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 17:18:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
The naive "the Jesus myth is just an adaptation of the Mithra myths" mantra is an oft repeated piece of weblegend dismissed by Clauss' authoritative The Roman Cult of Mithras for lack of evidence.
Mithraism is substanially older than christianity.
Thanks for sharing.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
When the religions are compared, the similarity is enough that it would be considered a copyright infringment nowdays. Early christians borrowed heavily.
You previously claimed: "Mithra died, was buried in a cave, and was resurected 3 days later..." Now reference the scholarship to substantiate it.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
That "Constantine ... forced the various factions of christians to agree on a single doctrine in 325AD" is, to the best of my knowledge, unevidenced.
Constantine gathered the various church leaders in Nicea. It's not as if you refused a request of the emperor in those days if you wanted to live, so his request for a gathering can be viewed as a command.
Constantine fed, housed, and entertained the representatives once they arrived in Nicea.
Constantine chaired the two month long event.
Constantine set the agenda for the meeting.
Those who insisted on maintaining the Arian Heresy were exiled, excommunicated, and/or executed. ...
Constantine forced it.
Again, the resolution is relatively simple. You've made a claim, now reference the scholarship to substantiate it.
Let me ask you an honest and serious question: have you ever read any substantive scholarship on Mithraism or early Christian history? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 21:31:58 [Permalink]
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ConsequentAtheist wrote:quote:
... roughly equivalent to: Why don't you get off your dumb ass and actually read a real book?
Perhaps your original meaning would have been more clear with two Bs in the word. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Tavion
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 22:48:33 [Permalink]
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| this goes back to the question of why God didnt make us perfect and etc. first of all, he did make us perfect, secondly how many of you enjoy your free will? pretty nice huh? but, what if you had no choices? what if you where for all practical purposes a flesh and blood robot? free will, or the ability to choose, to ignore total instinct, or rise above it, or make choices that will ease instincts demands and allow for free time is what sets us apart from animals, how would you like to live on an island for the rest of your life with only animals to talk to and teach cute little tricks to? animals that you could tie to a rope and lead around, where they had to follow you? and no matter what you sarcastic people say, that would get dull, and boring, now imagine doing it for eternity instead of only 70 years, and you wonder why God didnt make it where we had no choice but to follow him? honestly, what is gained if people have no choice but to follow you? no, God loved us enough to give us a choice, we chose wrong, and many ask why are we punished for Adam and Eve's mistakes? well, we arent, we are punished for our own, you know what keeps us out of Heaven? sin, if you where to be perfect from birth to death, you wouldnt have to accept Christ, but we have all made a bad choice, all have sinned, and thus we cannot enter without accepting the sacrifice that was Jesus. and as for why did God send his son to die? he loved/loves us that much, yes Jesus went through alot of pain, but he came back to life, he did that for us, i cant imagine how God must have felt, at the moment Christ died, for those of you with children, imagine if you would, that you worked at a bridge, one of those nice bridges that opens in the middle to allow ships to pass. now imagine taking your son/daughter with you one day, and for whatever reason, they where playing on<or if it helps your skeptical mind, working with you and where greasing the gears> or greasing the giant gears of this bridge, when suddenly you notice an unscheduled ship coming through, hundereds of people on it, and your child cant get out of the gears in time, you now have a choice, let the people of the boat smash into the bridge, or, move the bridge, in the process killing your child, but saving the people of the boat, God went through that choice, and he loved us so much, that he chose us, now then, for those of you who absolutly say God does not exist, well, sorry to say it, but it is impossible for you to know that, have you been all over the universe? have you traveled every inch of it and found nothing? how do you know God isnt out there? lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, how many of you have actually seen lets say, 50 million dollars all in a nice pile all at once? and yet, you still believe it is there becasue other people say it is, how many of you have actually seen the giant squid of the deep ocean that the mighty sperm whale hunts? and yet you have heard of it most likely, seen stories on tv, and you believe all cause someone said, so, can you really prove to me that just cause you havent seen God that he isnt there? have you seen the result of a giant squids maw slicing into a fish? but still you believe, and yet you havent seen even that proof, ill end with this a man once said: "I would rather spend my life believing in God, and accepting Christ, only to die and find that he isnt real, than to live my life rejecting him, dying and finding that he is real |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 01:42:23 [Permalink]
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| Tavion, your post is a bit brainwashed. If you read what is really in the Bible, instead of what they taught you in Bible school and instead of what you have heard in Christian circles, you'd find that none of that sappy stuff is really in it. Just for starter because I'm going outside to watch meteors and haven't time to take on all your statements, all men are supposedly being punished for their original sin by having to toil on the land. Well, maybe some people have more original sin than others because some people toil and some don't. Women, OTOH, were punished with the pain of childbirth. So I guess we weren't forgiven by Jesus but later god had second thoughts and gave us anesthesia? |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 03:07:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
you now have a choice, let the people of the boat smash into the bridge, or, move the bridge, in the process killing your child, but saving the people of the boat, God went through that choice, and he loved us so much, that he chose us
Well, that makes no sense at all. Let's look at that idea literally. First, god supposedly has a son whom he sacrifices. Well, if my child died, I would no longer have him. I couldn't see him, talk to him, be with him and that is where the pain is. So Jesus went to heaven. Where's the loss? Jesus suffered. Well so have millions of people, some waaaay more than Jesus. And, let me get this straight, god decides we need to be forgiven so he makes his son suffer? Huh? Why couldn't he just forgive us? Or how about making some other requirement? And finally, aren't people supposed to be god's children? So how is Jesus different? Did he grow up with god in heaven then get sent down here as an embryo? Or did god just designate one of his embryos as a special son? It makes for a nice story, someone sacrifices their most beloved child so you should now worship that person. But the story is extremely flawed. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 03:38:22 [Permalink]
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"All religions are confusing; it is what keeps priests in business."
Many years ago, I read the above in a book titled, The Last Tomb. I've forgotten the author, but it was a cracking good story. The statment might be ridiculed, but it has yet to be debunked.
Lets face it; religions, in all of their complexity, are business. In return for your money, or other forms of tender (chickens, first-born sons, shrunken heads, etc.), they offer soothing words and bright ceremonies. And they berate the compitition even more vigorously (and bloodly) than Microsoft. This is exactly right to their investors because the competition can't be allowed to gain a market advantage.
In short, they all want to corner the market (and cash) in what is known as 'souls'. Toward this end, history tells us, they will commit any form of repression, indecentcy or perversion. The rip-off continues today.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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