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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2004 : 06:28:40
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Ok Skeptics. Does anyone feel they have enough proof to convict Saddam of any crime? Seriously, who among us has any 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd hand evidence that Saddam ever did anything bad? I keep hearing people talk about what a nasty bastard he was and how it's important to make an example of him as a warning to dictators everywhere, blah blah blah. But is it possible we've been partially or wholly mislead?
Before you fire off an indignant answer (As if), consider this - The US invaded his country and threw him out of power because he:
A. Had poison gas and disease organisms ready to deploy in 40 minutes time, in defiance of the international community.
B. Was continuing to secretly develop nuclear weapons.
C. Was lying to the UN about these WMD possessions and the nuclear program and hiding them from, and obstructing the work of, UN inspectors in defiance of the international community.
D. Had ties with Al Queida, to whom he would likely give these weapons for use against the US and the West in general.
Come to find out he WASN'T lying to the UN inspectors, WASN'T obstructing their efforts and WASN'T hiding anything. He apparently DESTROYED his WMDs in the early '90s more or less when he was ordered to by the UN. Further, despite the insistance of President Dumb Dumb, he had NO relationship with Al Queida anyway. So, if we, the US public, were so mislead on these facts, how can we trust anything we've been told about Saddam's Iraq?
Here's a story I'm STILL pissed about from GW-1. Shortly after Iraq invaded Kuwait, I was listening to All Things Considered on NPR on my way from Detroit to see my then girlfriend (we subsequently married) who was a student at UofM in Ann Arbor (Go Blue!). It was a Friday afternoon and the sun was in my eyes as I cruised past Ypsilanti on I-94. I remember the day, the afternoon, like it happened yesterday.
On the radio a young Kuwaiti girl was giving near hysterical testimony to the US Congress. It was some House committee, I think. She had recently escaped occupied-Kuwait and made the eye-witness claim that Iraqi soldiers entered a Kuwaiti hospital and took the infant incubators, leaving the newborns on the floor to die. And one Iraqi soldier skewered a pregnant woman to the wall with his bayonet. I heard this and was infuriated. The image in my mind, and the raw emotion of the girl's crying, hysterical testimony, nearly drove me to tears. (Hey, I'm a sensitive guy  )
The TRUTH was this eye-witness was actually the daughter of a diplomatic official living in the US and wasn't anywhere near Kuwait during the invasion. She was recruited by a US Public Relations firm hired by the Kuwaiti government in exile to influence Congress and the US public against Iraq. There is no evidence the acts she described ever happened. Indeed, I recall later reading an article claiming the Iraqi soldiers were fairly well behaved - as far as invading soldiers go - at least in the initial invasion. It was all smoke and mirrors and I - like congress and the rest of the US public - was taken for a ride.
I recall 60 Minutes did an expose on this same event a few years later, though it never gained much steam in terms of public outrage. (I was fucking pissed off and I still am today.) After this, and after the whole GW-2 justification debacle, I'm one skeptical mother-scratcher when it comes to Iraq. I don't know that Saddam's military gassed civilians, I don't know that their invasion of Kuwait wasn't justifiable, I don't know that his government tortured prisoners, I don't know that his son's were homicidal maniacs who killed random people for pleasure. I don't know any of this shit and I don't trust ANYBODY to tell me the truth about Iraq and Saddam.
Do YOU?
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-Chaloobi
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Edited by - chaloobi on 07/02/2004 07:14:10
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 06:33:09 [Permalink]
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Well, I'm sure that Saddam Hussein can be found guilty of some crimes, much like most Presidents.
Saddam says two things that are probably true. He says that his trial is theater, which it is, and that Bush is a criminal, which he is.
Milosevic's trial is probably the one that we should be watching if we are concerned about show trials. That's my undeducated opinion. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 07:30:05 [Permalink]
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Saddam is guilty of some crimes.
The four you list are not among them.
He is guilty of ordering the gassing of Iraqi Kurds. He is guilty of invading a sovreign nation for no good reason.
And Gorgo is right, it's nothing that other world leaders couldn't be convicted of including our own US Presidents.
There was a relationship between al-Queda and Hussein. They were trying to kill him.
He did hide some elements of his nuclear program, but that program was not active for over 12 years. (One centrifuge associated with the nuclear program was recovered right where the Iraqi scientist buried it at the end of 1991.)
And apart from one sarin gas shell of unknown origin expended (improperly) 13 months after invasion, no confirmed chemical or biological weapons have been recovered in Iraq.
Bottom line, Iraq did not pose an immediate threat to anybody (as is required for unilateral action by any UN nation) nor did it have terrorist ties. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 08:05:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Saddam is guilty of some crimes.
The four you list are not among them.
He is guilty of ordering the gassing of Iraqi Kurds. He is guilty of invading a sovreign nation for no good reason.
And Gorgo is right, it's nothing that other world leaders couldn't be convicted of including our own US Presidents.
There was a relationship between al-Queda and Hussein. They were trying to kill him.
He did hide some elements of his nuclear program, but that program was not active for over 12 years. (One centrifuge associated with the nuclear program was recovered right where the Iraqi scientist buried it at the end of 1991.)
And apart from one sarin gas shell of unknown origin expended (improperly) 13 months after invasion, no confirmed chemical or biological weapons have been recovered in Iraq.
Bottom line, Iraq did not pose an immediate threat to anybody (as is required for unilateral action by any UN nation) nor did it have terrorist ties.
Given the history of blatant deception regarding everything Iraq by our government and other concerned parties, how can you be sure enough of your points above to talk of them as though they definitely happened? Is it possible the claims of gassing were fabricated? BTW - what would constitute a good reason to invade Kuwait? Some would say aquiring Kuwait's oil wealth is a good reason to invade. I can say this, the current reason for invading Iraq - establishing a free democracy - was NOT a good reason, chiefly because it's impossible to achieve. But I digress. . . |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 07/02/2004 08:17:21 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 08:15:58 [Permalink]
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| It's true that someone was gassed, but some claim it was the Iranians that did it, and I'm not sure the issue was settled, was it? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 08:16:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
What about the mass graves?
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_graves.pdf
To be strictly Devi's advocate, the pressence of a mass grave does not prove positive that Saddam is guilty of mass murder. The source of the grave, assuming it's not fabricated to influenc public opinion, could be many things:
1. Casualties from the war with Iran - maybe they're even Iranian soldiers.
2. Casualties from GW-1. The US bombing campaign left uncounted thousands of dead Iraqi soldiers in their desert fortifications.
3. Casualties from the Sh'ite/Kurdish uprising post GW-1. Was it a crime for Saddam to put down these rebelions in his nation? Assuming they were rebel soldiers. . . .
4. The bodies of executed criminals. As long as the law is established, the criminals given due process, and found guilty with legitimate evidence and what-not, does it matter if their bodies are thrown into unmarked graves? Perhaps unmarked graves is part of the punishment for their crime.
5. The bodies might be pre-Saddam - though that is easily determined.
6. That photo may not be from Iraq. Who the hell knows. We've been lied to SO MUCH. 
Just because there's a pit full of unidentified bodies, doesn't mean a mass murder has occurred. It's a pretty good indicator, but it's not beyond a doubt, especially in a country which has experienced so much warfare over the last couple decades. |
-Chaloobi
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 09:46:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's true that someone was gassed, but some claim it was the Iranians that did it, and I'm not sure the issue was settled, was it?
Iraq listed chemical weapon warheads expended including chlorine gas ones in response to the UN resolutions. The Iranian report in 1988 was initially discounted because only Iran was known (at the time) to have chlorine gas weapons. Iraq's compliance with reporting changed the opinion of military analysts. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 09:59:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Saddam is guilty of some crimes.
The four you list are not among them.
He is guilty of ordering the gassing of Iraqi Kurds. He is guilty of invading a sovreign nation for no good reason.
And Gorgo is right, it's nothing that other world leaders couldn't be convicted of including our own US Presidents.
There was a relationship between al-Queda and Hussein. They were trying to kill him.
He did hide some elements of his nuclear program, but that program was not active for over 12 years. (One centrifuge associated with the nuclear program was recovered right where the Iraqi scientist buried it at the end of 1991.)
And apart from one sarin gas shell of unknown origin expended (improperly) 13 months after invasion, no confirmed chemical or biological weapons have been recovered in Iraq.
Bottom line, Iraq did not pose an immediate threat to anybody (as is required for unilateral action by any UN nation) nor did it have terrorist ties.
Given the history of blatant deception regarding everything Iraq by our government and other concerned parties, how can you be sure enough of your points above to talk of them as though they definitely happened? Is it possible the claims of gassing were fabricated? BTW - what would constitute a good reason to invade Kuwait? Some would say aquiring Kuwait's oil wealth is a good reason to invade. I can say this, the current reason for invading Iraq - establishing a free democracy - was NOT a good reason, chiefly because it's impossible to achieve. But I digress. . .
I base my points on evidence from many sources outside the US government. The free press and UN reports and reports from the countries in question allow me to form a basis to analyze the truth value of US government reporting. There is enough evidence through the reports from the Kurds and Iranians as well as Iraqs own disclosure of chlorine gas weapons to the UN to reasonably expect that Iraq gassed the Kurds.
Kuwaits invasion was based on a claim by Hussein that Kuwait was originally part of Iraq's ancestral lands. This was shown to be inaccurate and the land had been free of Iraqs influence for well over 100 years.
http://www.kuwait-info.org/Gulf_War/history_kuwait_iraq_border_dispute.html
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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