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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 07/06/2004 : 21:48:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
What if minorities do, in fact, break the law that much more than whites? I suspect it's true.
I dunno about that. In the USA I have heard of a black man being given life in prison for stealing his third stereo while many white collar criminals spend little, if any, time in jail. What Renae said above is very much worth thinking about.
Why are blacks pulled over for a burned out tail light just as a Lexus blows through a stop sign at 50mph? Why is a black man that does cocaine a criminal when a white kid in the suburbs is in need of treatment? Why does a black person need the book thrown at them for shoplifting while Winona Ryder gets probabtion?
I don't think the system is fair enough to look at numbers alone and declare a group bad because so many of them are in prison. What if the system is designed to do this so that candidates can look tough on crime? Some prisoners are used as cheap labor as well and the demand for that is maybe it's own story. Need more cheap labor....criminalize some other petty issue. You're tough on crime AND it's good for business.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 03:20:45 [Permalink]
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Well, why don't you write him and tell him and see what he says?
quote:
Wise's essay is nice, but I'm not sure I'd call it "good." For instance, he sets up a number of straw-man arguments. He makes such comments as:
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 05:53:00 [Permalink]
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I don't think those are straw man arguments. I think it's true that *generalization disclaimer* most whites don't think much about racism and I don't know too many whites who cop to their own prejudices (and we all have them.)
What I see most people do: acknowledge that an idea or belief is racist, and then scramble to offer evidence for it, rather than owning it as a product of their own mental and emotional processes. Fact is, we can all find evidence to support any number of stereotypes in our heads. That doesn't make them "true" or even "generally true."
My criminology professor was black. His Ph.D. didn't stop him from being pulled over in the middle of the night and shaken down by the police. He told us he couldn't wear a leather jacket, though he liked them, because that would make this problem worse. He looked (to me) like a college professor, not a gang member. But he had a reasonably nice car in a black neighborhood and black skin and that was all it took to be "suspicious."
People don't want to believe they're racist or prejudiced. It's injurious to their self-esteem.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 06:18:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, why don't you write him and tell him and see what he says?
Yeah-- a person who describes her- or himself as "an antiracist essayist [and] activist" will likely be very reasonable and would love to hear that someone disagrees with some of her or his arguments. I think I'll write him right now! |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 07/07/2004 06:23:51 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 06:35:17 [Permalink]
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Well, that wasn't a challenge, but I have communicated with him and find him very reasonable. If you put the question politely, I'm sure he'll write you back rather than send a letter bomb.
If you think it's outrageous to write him, maybe I'll ask him about it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/07/2004 06:35:58 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 08:48:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, that wasn't a challenge, but I have communicated with him and find him very reasonable. If you put the question politely, I'm sure he'll write you back rather than send a letter bomb.
If you think it's outrageous to write him, maybe I'll ask him about it.
Well I don't disagree with Wise's argument that racism is still quite prevalent in society. I do disagree with his implication that if I agree with anything that Cosby said, then I must now feel that I "no longer had any responsibilities to address discrimination or racism"
Do most whites think that? I don't know. And I doubt that Wise knows, either. But that's the construct he set up in his piece.
Another thing I'm not clear about is if Wise actually agrees or disagrees with Cosby. Obviously he didn't like how it was said (he called it "obnoxious," "over-the-top" and a "shameful and classist diatribe," among other things). But was Cosby right or not? Wise seems to actually disagree. For instance, Wise argues that Cosby was wrong about blacks, and maintains that "few commit crime, most place a high value on education, and only a small percentage get pregnant as minors."
Where he gets his numbers to support this is not clear. Certainly the crime issue is a mess, since-- as you've already noted-- our criminal justice system is awash in racism, so those numbers simply cannot be trusted. Assessing the African-American value on education is difficult, too, but in the Journal of Policy Anaylisis and Management 16:2 (1997), P. Cook and J. Ludwig, in their article "Weighing the "Burden of Acting 'White'"...," suggest that educational goals are similar between whites and blacks. But the teen pregnancy numbers are high. The site www.teenpregnancy.org suggests a rather high rate rate, but perhaps by phrasing it as "only a small percentage" he's technically accurate. (153 per 1000 is, indeed, only a small percentage, but much higher than 55 per 1000.)
So if Wise is right and Cosby is wrong, how do we assess the disparity in educational achivement, financial and career status, etc.? Is it all because of racism? Are there no elements of inner-city black culture that are detrimental to that same group escaping poverty, crime, etc.? Is my even posing such a question just an example of typical white, racist thinking? Perhaps it's all inseparable. If-- by magic-- we removed all racism today, what would happen? I wonder if, in addition to the significant drops in incarceration, poverty, etc., and the increase in home-ownership, employment, education, etc., we would also see a greater homogeneity in cultural and social norms. Maybe. I dunno.
At this point-- after spending something like 2 hours writing this-- I'm not even sure of what I'm asking. I just found the attacks against Cosby and his remarks by Wise to be odd, as he never really addressed the validity of them (beyond a few cryptic remarks noted above), and instead went on a rant about how stupid white people are because they think that they might be valid.
So that's enough, I guess. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 09:04:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't think the system is fair enough to look at numbers alone and declare a group bad because so many of them are in prison
Nor do I. My point is: Our soceity is not as well structured as it could be, and we don't extend as much fairness or justice to the people on the bottom of the stack as we could. This has nothing to do with race. The poorest segment of any civilization in history is the least likely to be compliant with the rules of that society. Those who break the rules are more likely to end up punished for it (i.e. prison, ect...).
To stand up and point to statistics that show there are more minority men in jail than white men, and then call the system racist? I don't think so.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2004 : 07:53:01 [Permalink]
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@tomic said:
quote:
I dunno about that. In the USA I have heard of a black man being given life in prison for stealing his third stereo while many white collar criminals spend little, if any, time in jail.
You made alot of assertions that you did not back up. Life in prison for stealing stereos? Please back this up with some supporting documentation.
I do not disagree that racisim is rampant - but this statement is very hard to believe.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2004 : 08:39:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
A third felony will get you life in some states.
This is true in California. The three strikes law means just that. Borderline criminals doing hard time for life. It is such a stupid law... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2004 : 10:26:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
@tomic said:
quote:
I dunno about that. In the USA I have heard of a black man being given life in prison for stealing his third stereo while many white collar criminals spend little, if any, time in jail.
You made alot of assertions that you did not back up. Life in prison for stealing stereos? Please back this up with some supporting documentation.
I do not disagree that racisim is rampant - but this statement is very hard to believe.
Per your request.
ICLS (Illinois Compiled Statutes)
720 ICLS 5/16
(4.1) Theft of property from the person not
exceeding $300 in value, or theft of property exceeding $300 and not exceeding $10,000 in value, is a Class 2 felony if the theft was committed in a school or place of worship.
(5) Theft of property exceeding $10,000 and not
exceeding $100,000 in value is a Class 2 felony.
(5.1) Theft of property exceeding $10,000 and not
exceeding $100,000 in value is a Class 1 felony if the theft was committed in a school or place of worship.
730 ICLS 5/5-5-3
(8) When a defendant, over the age of 21 years, is
convicted of a Class 1 or Class 2 felony, after having twice been convicted in any state or federal court of an offense that contains the same elements as an offense now classified in Illinois as a Class 2 or greater Class felony and such charges are separately brought and tried and arise out of different series of acts, such defendant shall be sentenced as a Class X offender. This paragraph shall not apply unless (1) the first felony was committed after the effective date of this amendatory Act of 1977; and (2) the second felony was committed after conviction on the first; and (3) the third felony was committed after conviction on the second. A person sentenced as a Class X offender under this paragraph is not eligible to apply for treatment as a condition of probation as provided by Section 40#8209;10 of the Alcoholism and Other Drug Abuse and Dependency Act.
(720 ILCS 5/33B#8209;1) (from Ch. 38, par. 33B#8209;1)
Sec. 33B#8209;1. (a) Every person who has been twice convicted in any state or federal court of an offense that contains the same elements as an offense now classified in Illinois as a Class X felony, criminal sexual assault, aggravated kidnapping or first degree murder, and is thereafter convicted of a Class X felony, criminal sexual assault or first degree murder, committed after the 2 prior convictions, shall be adjudged an habitual criminal.
(b) The 2 prior convictions need not have been for the same offense.
(c) Any convictions which result from or are connected with the same transaction, or result from offenses committed at the same time, shall be counted for the purposes of this Section as one conviction.
(d) This Article shall not apply unless each of the following requirements are satisfied:
(1) the third offense was committed after the
effective date of this Act;
(2) the third offense was committed within 20 years
of the date that judgment was entered on the first conviction, provided, however, that time spent in custody shall not be counted;
(3) the third offense was committed after conviction
on the second offense;
(4) the second offense was committed after
conviction on the first offense.
(e) Except when the death penalty is imposed, anyone adjudged an habitual criminal shall be sentenced to life imprisonment.
(Source: P.A. 88#8209;677, eff. 12#8209;15#8209;94.)
Thus, steal stereos or other property in excess of $300 from 5 churches and/or schools and you've got life.
Here's a story about a guy who is actually facing life for stealing nine (count em' nine) children's videotapes.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/28/60II/main527248.shtml |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 07/08/2004 10:33:25 |
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