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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 07/16/2004 : 09:55:03 [Permalink]
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Coberst
From some of your comments you seem extremely impressed with yourself and your intellectual prowess.
I would venture that most of the people that frequent this site are intrested in 'self learning', or else they would be watching reruns of "Fantasy Island". I also assume, since this is a skeptic site, that they are intrested in logic, history and the sciences.
quote:
I am trying to introduce adults to this new concept and I am also trying to convince them that self-learning is a valuable hobby they should consider.
The idea that you have this new concept, where once you reach adulthood there is an alternative to your mind atrophying is really amazingly arrogant.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 11:07:13 [Permalink]
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| Furshur, it seems to be a human characteristic to meet any new idea with a closed mind. It seems that after exposure many times to something new the mind slowly opens and is receptive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 11:58:35 [Permalink]
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coberst, the idea that people over 40 can have an intellectual life is not new. Maybe furshur is wrong, however, and you're simply naive.
By the way, are you ever going to substaniate your bold claim that you hear people call themselves critical-thinking experts on this site "all the time?" Or should I just assume that you're not the critical thinker you present yourself as? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 13:22:12 [Permalink]
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Cober
quote:
Furshur, it seems to be a human characteristic to meet any new idea with a closed mind.
I have read your posts and I can find NO new ideas. You must present a new idea before you can accuse me of closing my mind to it.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 13:45:08 [Permalink]
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Furshur
Most people find the idea of Critical Thinking something new. I know you are going to go on that everybody thinks and everybody is critical therefor everybody is a critical thinker. I suspect you find this idea so new and threatening that you have not bothered to investigate it by searching on google.
Most people find the idea of self-learning to be new. Of course you are going to say everybody learns on their own.
Machiavelli (1469-1527), in his classic work The Prince, observed, "There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things." New is risky, and people often fear it.
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 13:47:31 [Permalink]
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| Dave our problem is that either you do not bother to understand what I have written or you are what is commonly called a heckler. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 20:37:54 [Permalink]
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coberst wrote:quote:
Dave our problem is that either you do not bother to understand what I have written or you are what is commonly called a heckler.
See, coberst, you have, above, presented what we who promote critical thought commonly call a "false dichotomy." You have decided I'm one of two things, when in reality, I'm something else entirely. And what I am is a person who demands that people who present themselves as being critical thinkers actually be critical thinkers. I believe you are not one. I believe you exhibit many of the traits you've presented to us as being sub-optimal in people. I believe you'd fit in better with a bunch of undergrad philosophy majors with a big bag of marijuana than amongst a bunch of real critical thinkers. The undergrads would hang on your every word.
I also believe that your message and your goals will not be satisfied here at the SFN using the methods you've used to date. And, since you rarely engage in discussion of the topics you post - while these forums are for discussion - you are acting in a way that is somewhat at odds with our goals here. Several people have suggested you try to promote critical thinking among the 40-plus set elsewhere, as you are wasting your time here, but you refused to listen. I will say so again, and since I'm one of the admins here, perhaps it will mean something to you, finally.
Especially since you have now taken your own prejudice to new levels by suggesting that furshur is afraid of critical thinking. I'm going to bet that he will find that insulting. In case you haven't seen our mission statement, which is on every damn page, I will post it for you:The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise. The idea that with such a mission statement these forums attract "most people" is ludicrous. Do you understand how mind-bogglingly moronic it is to think that the visitors to these forums represent some sort of majority of the population? If so, you are incredibly naive in the ways of the Internet, coberst, and of the SFN specifically. And maybe that's it: maybe you've just gotten your first Internet connection, and are still riding the high from the feeling that anonymous posting gives you.
The idea that "searching on Google" is a good way to "investigate" critical thinking speaks volumes in support of my hypothesis. Yes, there are a bunch of good resources out there (putting the phrase in quotes gives only 1,890,000 results, though), but there are also a tremendous number of introductory books to the subject which will probably suit "most people" much better than wading into Google without a virtual hand to hold.
After all, not every site which mentions "critical thinking" is going to be about critical thinking. The idea that five million results means five million relevant results just reveals a large ignorance of how Google and the Internet both work (or don't). It was pretty easy to find a conservative Christian web page about critical thinking which studiously avoids critical thought about the Bible. Is that a good resource, the sort you had in mind?
And while we're on the subject of searching, either cough up the quotes from which you concluded that people here say they are critical thinking experts "all the time," or apologize for being such a sloppy thinker. (You have more choices than that, of course, but they don't bring closure nearly as easily or quickly.) According to Critical Thinking Core Concepts,Fundamentally, Critical Thinking or Informal Logic deals with the use of reason in the pursuit of truth. Since you appear to be uninterested in whether or not your conclusions are true - as with the "experts" nonsense - and you appear to be uninterested in whether or not your premises are true - as with the sociology crap - I come to the conclusion that you are uninterested in truth at all, and thus cannot be a critical thinker since you act contrary to its foundational goal. You have yet to demonstrate to me that this hypothesis is wrong, which should be easy.
But back to your tiny and fallacious response. Do I bother to understand what you write? Absolutely I try, and in certain cases have taken issue with your conclusions and/or premises. If you believe that my problem is a misunderstanding, you have failed to correct me, ever. Are you so conceited that you believe that what you've written should be immediately understood by everyone? Let me relieve your burden, there, and inform you that most people will misunderstand what you've written to date here on the SFN. If you don't help them understand, by refusing to open clear channels of communication, the misunderstanding will be of your own making.
You present yourself as a critical thinker and a writer, yet you appear to lack critical thinking skills and the knowledge of the real world and one's audience required by an author. I say the things I say to you not just to annoy or embarrass you, as a heckler would, but to try to help you reach your previously stated goals. That you do not seem to understand this is further evidence that you are uninterested in those goals, but instead post here for other reasons, yet to be determined or admitted. But if you continue to act as you have been acting here, you will only annoy me further.
Am I making myself perfectly clear, coberst?
Post script: Thinking about the above, and Google, led me to an interesting search. It seems you've been busy, coberst. Aside from posting your essay "Critical Thinking" here on June 27th, you also posted it (on the same day) at:I can also see you've posted many of your other essays to those places as well, and if I cared to spend more time on this, I could probably find other forums, too.
You've received a bunch of the same sorts of replies in those other places as you have here. For example, "To be quite frank, coberst - you seem to be mererly making statements; just assuming what you say to be true..." If the various people in these different places saying the same things to you doesn't club you over the head with reality, allow me to try: a bunch of people all misunderstanding your writing in the same way means that you aren't communicating your ideas well. The problem is not that we are all a bunch of numbskulls who are just looking to make wise-ass remarks at your expense, the problem is that you are unable to get your meaning across to your audience. The problem lies with you, coberst. Take some personal responsibility and stop denying the reality of this - yo |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 00:41:02 [Permalink]
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Good grief. By accident, I fed into your crap, cobrest.
You see, I wound up having the time to delve more deeply into your activities around the web, despite what I said about not caring to spend more time on you. You're like a hangnail, in that regard: you know if you don't mess with it so much, it won't bug you, but you can't help but fiddle and so you suffer the consequences. Well, what I found was enlightening regarding your efforts all over the place. But, I'll only reference one of them right now.
This BABB thread explains quite a bit. For example, it shows that not only are you arrogant and bigoted, but that you've got paranoid delusions that people who don't know you are out to get you and your "new ideas" which aren't at all new.
So far in my searches, which aren't yet complete, I've only found a single example of you posting to a forum which wasn't already - in some way - devoted to the ideals of, or the discussion of, critical thinking. And that's your single post to INDOlink. Of course, "[a]s a niche portal, INDOlink specializes in providing valuable and exclusive content and services catering to the core needs of the Asian-Indian community," so I'm not surprised that nobody's replied to date to your post there. It is rather out of place.
Since it obviously hasn't occured to you, here is a link to the AARP's "Learning" Message Board, which should meet the requirements of your desired demographic. I sort of hate to fling you towards them, but you don't seem capable of finding your own way to your own target audience. I would suggest that before you sign up to post there, that you find and read their Acceptable Use Policy, and then lurk for a while to figure out the social norms you will find (in other words: understand your damn audience). That way, you won't annoy them (unlike what's happened here, or on the BABB).
I do hope you take the time to understand that the above combines my venting of frustration with an attempt to help you on your quest. I also hope that the fine people running the AARP message boards also understand that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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