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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2004 : 19:42:25
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We've been getting some members from the BABB board, thanks in part to coberst, and I would like to ask them what are some common misconceptions in astronomy? For example, I'm pretty sure most people here are familiar with the one that says that the Sun in shrinking 5 feet per second, so the universe must be less than 10,000 years old, as it is a creationists argument. I was also reading articles on that site an learned one that I had for many years (and one that my 7th grade science teacher had as well), that water goes down the drain in the opposite direction on the Southern Hemisphere (hey, the Simpsons had an episode on it, so it must be right, right? RIGHT?)
Just wanted to share, maybe we all could learn a little.
[Moved to the Astronomy/UFOlogy folder - Dave W.]
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 19:55:16 [Permalink]
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One mis-conception I've heard for years is that the Big Bang was a conventional explosion from -one- single point; that all matter in the known universe was squeezed into one infinitesimally small area.
That's urban legend that keeps getting repeated ad nauseum in the media/general public.
The Big Bang theory postulates that the 'explosion' or rip happened in all areas of space.
http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/acosmbb.html |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Skyhawk
New Member
33 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 21:28:59 [Permalink]
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For the first thread, the Sun does NOT shrink. It actually enlarges. But its a very small change. The Sun is about 5 billion years old and its constantly fusing hydrogen atoms/molecules together (which is colliding and combining them). Which then forms helium isotopes (bigger atoms). This process is repeated. The Sun is like a big oven and it keeps going until there is no more fuel. Now, 5 billion years from now the Sun will turn into a Red Giant once all the Hydrogen fuel is gone. It will start to use Helium fuel, but this takes more energy to combine helium atoms to create bigger atoms. Thus, you get less energy. So the Sun will cool and expand, expand so big that it will consume Earth!
The data used by the creationists were interpreted wrong. Its not shrinking, its expanding. Also, you can't estimate the time when the Universe is created from the Sun. Because, the Sun wasn't even there! The Sun was actually created from space "waste." The Sun is actually made out of OTHER DEAD SUNS in the Universe!
As for the South and North hemisphere where the water turns in one direction, and the other the opposite is FALSE. Both the North and the South drainage will turn in the same direction. But, tornados and hurricanes WILL turn in opposite directions. This is because of the Coriollis Effect. The Earth isn't exactly a spehere. It is sort of squished like a football. If you had 3 guys standing in the North, South Hemispheres and one right on top of the eqquator...they all would experience night and day at the same time. That surface of the planet must take the same time to go in a circle, which is 24 hours. But the circumference around the equator is bigger than any other place on the planet. So travelling around the equator would take longer than travelling around the North Pole. But both surfaces take the sametime to turn (24hrs). That means the Equator MUST be going faster than the North Pole. So, if at the eqator you are travelling the fastest, as you move towards the equator you move slower around the Earth.
Now imagine a wind current travelling from the equator to for example Florida. As it moves north, the Earth is turning East. But, the Earth is moving faster near the equator than in Florida. So, the 'tail' of the wind current is being moved Eastwardly faster than the 'head' of the wind because the head is closer to Florida.So, the tail keeps getting pushed until the tail is pushed so far to the East, the wind starts to 'spin.' This creates a counter-clockwise movement of the wind. That's how it works. The opposite happens in South hemisphere where you move form the Equator to the South creating clockwise effect.
Now for toilet water to move North enough to feel the effect of the Earth's rotation is darn right impossible. I hope you find my explanation useful.
Now for the Big Bang, I talked to a Math Prof at MacMaster University and he told me that the Universe was a single point, a single mathematical point and NOT a single point in space. Its a point to work the model, and not a physical point. According to this website, tell me if this is contradicting:
"the Big Bang is that it occurred in every cubic centimeter of space in the universe with no unique starting point."
"It did not occur IN space at a particular location, because it created space ( and time itself) as it went along. "
See the contradiction? The Math Prof told me what I think is right, it DIDN'T happen in space, it DID create space...but it isn't a point in space, its really a MATHEMATICAL point to represent the beginning of space-time. Time and space didn't exist at this instant. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2004 : 22:13:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
For the first thread, the Sun does NOT shrink. It actually enlarges.
It forms bigger atoms, but it takes four hydrogen atoms to make 1 helium atom. And using Einstiens formula, E=mc^2, we find that a small part of each atom in the fusion process is transfered to energy. Also, due to solar winds (particles that fly out of the Sun), the Sun is also decreasing in mass. Heres a good article on it:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bitesize/massloss.html
quote:
It will start to use Helium fuel, but this takes more energy to combine helium atoms to create bigger atoms. Thus, you get less energy. So the Sun will cool and expand, expand so big that it will consume Earth!
Now I'm not sure about this, but I see several problems with the above statement. First of all, normally things that cool, contract, not expand. Second, the Sun has so much gravity that it is collapsing in on itself and this creates temperatures which are hot enough for fusion to take place. The fusion is the force which is keeping the Sun stable, pushing against the gravity. Without the fusion (i.e. when the fuel is used up) The Sun should (in logic) collapse in on itself, although it is not a large enough mass to form a black hole. I would like to state that I don't know astronomy that well, so the above can very well be wrong, but thats what I think. Any contrary opinions or do you know of something that I missed?
quote:
The data used by the creationists were interpreted wrong. Its not shrinking, its expanding. Also, you can't estimate the time when the Universe is created from the Sun. Because, the Sun wasn't even there! The Sun was actually created from space "waste." The Sun is actually made out of OTHER DEAD SUNS in the Universe!
Yes, however you can tell the age of solar system and the amount of time that life could have possibly been alive on Earth.
quote:
"It did not occur IN space at a particular location, because it created space ( and time itself) as it went along. "
See the contradiction? The Math Prof told me what I think is right, it DIDN'T happen in space, it DID create space...but it isn't a point in space, its really a MATHEMATICAL point to represent the beginning of space-time. Time and space didn't exist at this instant.
A very possible answer to the question, although it makes me wonder what you would see if you went to the edge of the universe, as you have said that the Big Bang created the space, so if you went to the edge, I would imagine there would be no space on one side? Oh well, probably won't get there in my life time, no need to worry about it. Haha. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 07/25/2004 22:19:21 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 03:13:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
A very possible answer to the question, although it makes me wonder what you would see if you went to the edge of the universe, as you have said that the Big Bang created the space, so if you went to the edge, I would imagine there would be no space on one side? Oh well, probably won't get there in my life time, no need to worry about it. Haha.
Take a table at the Restruant at the End of the Universe, order up a Pan-Galatic Gargle-Blaster, and all will be made clear in due course. 
I do not pretend to understand Big Bang Theory, but many thanks and Welcome to Skyhawk! That was an interesting post.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 08:40:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
[quote] Now I'm not sure about this, but I see several problems with the above statement. First of all, normally things that cool, contract, not expand. Second, the Sun has so much gravity that it is collapsing in on itself and this creates temperatures which are hot enough for fusion to take place. The fusion is the force which is keeping the Sun stable, pushing against the gravity. Without the fusion (i.e. when the fuel is used up) The Sun should (in logic) collapse in on itself, although it is not a large enough mass to form a black hole. I would like to state that I don't know astronomy that well, so the above can very well be wrong, but thats what I think. Any contrary opinions or do you know of something that I missed?
I'm pretty certain the Sun will go nova and thus consume the earth, followed by collapsing on itself. That's the quick version. 
As for other astronomy misconceptions, one of the ones I run into the most often, is the idea that because the moon is tidally locked, it's not rotating. It rotates once every month as it orbits the earth. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 10:24:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
As for other astronomy misconceptions, one of the ones I run into the most often, is the idea that because the moon is tidally locked, it's not rotating. It rotates once every month as it orbits the earth.
Yea, I remember reading that but what I don't understand is why it rotates exactly once every time it goes around the Earth (surely its not by random chance right?), so that we always see the same side.
It is tidally locked. Thus, its orbital period and its rotational period are the same. It would be easier to explain if I could draw a diagram, but I don't know how to do that on here. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26027 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 11:38:45 [Permalink]
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Ricky, from NASA we can read:...It is believed that this fusion process produces enough energy to generate an outward pressure in the stars that reaches equilibrium with the inward pull of gravity. Our Sun is currently at this stage in its evolution and is fusing hydrogen to create helium.
The nuclear fuel (of light elements) which feeds the fusion process eventually runs out, and the stars end the first chapter in their lives. When the fuel runs out, the outward force which balances the gravitational attraction decreases. At that time gravitational forces again pull the outer layers of the star together, and the same processes that started the fusion process early in the stars' history begin again. This time the star expands even more than before, and it becomes a red giant. The star may expand to one hundred times its original equilibrium size. The amount of time between a star's birth and its red giant stage is dependent upon the original mass of the star. It seems that fusing helium generates a much larger outward pressure than fusing hydrogen does, which is why the Sun will eventually expand - theoretically to such an extent that its surface - the outer edges of the really hot gasses - will be outside the orbit of the Earth. This is definitely bad stuff for humans, unless we get off this rock in the next five billion years or so.
Our sun does not have enough mass to go nova. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 12:21:30 [Permalink]
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Hmm, would make since that astronomy misconceptions go under the astronomy board wouldn't it? Haha, guess I wasn't thinking.
Anyways, I think I understand now. As of right now, the Sun is fusing Hydrogen elements together to make Helium. When the Hydrogen runs out, it will start fusing Helium ones (as Helium take a much higher temperature to fuse). When this happens, there is a much greater energy release, causing the Sun to expand, becoming a red giant.
quote:
This is definitely bad stuff for humans, unless we get off this rock in the next five billion years or so.
We have been able to take a computer the size of a room and put it in ones hand in 30 years, I think we will be ready for space travel in 5 billion.  |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26027 Posts |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2004 : 14:10:49 [Permalink]
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The misconception that tends to stand out in my mind is that of the "face" on Mars, ancient "artifacts" on Mars. Every so often someone will post at Bad Astronomy how they have "proof" that there are ruins of an ancient civilization on Mars. They will then trot out pictures of Cydonia or pictures of rocks (photographed by the rovers) that sort of resemble certain objects (pareidolia). Usually, these folks are supporters of Richard Hoagland and they hold on very tightly to these misconceptions.
[Edited to fix URL - Dave W.] |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 11:13:20 [Permalink]
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Ive found that most people cant even come close to describing the universe as we know it. In fact most of the people I would expect to know it, don't grasp it properly either. Hell I have trouble with it and i think about it every day.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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N C More
Skeptic Friend
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 12:15:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
[Edited to fix URL - Dave W.]
Thank you Dave, what the "beep" am I doing wrong with the url code? I feel so dumb! I'm typing: [url=insert address]link[/url]. I can do this everywhere but here! Am I a  Bozo? Wait! I see you have an icon for hyperlink (I didn't notice that one). Yep, I'm a Bozo! |
"An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get some really weird bugs!" |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9694 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2004 : 14:47:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Skyhawk
That's how it works. The opposite happens in South hemisphere where you move form the Equator to the South creating clockwise effect.
Now for toilet water to move North enough to feel the effect of the Earth's rotation is darn right impossible.
Ah... I disagree somewhat.
The effect is present in water as well. The problem is that the effect is so small that too many other factors come into play.
I had this very discussion with my aunt who is a teacher.
In ordinary places where you would find water, like in the kitchen sink or the toilet, the mass of the water and the design of the appilance in question spoils the effect. But if you made a huge funnel, symetrically enough with a small drain in the middle, and let the water come to rest for a long enough time and so on... You would eventually be able to detect the effect.
But for all practical purposes, Skyhawk is right. Darn near impossible, yet under the right circumstances... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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