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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2004 : 02:47:26
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I grew up in a Catholic family. The first thing that I remember reading was the Catechism.
Q: Who made me?
A: God made me.
Q: Why did God make me?
A: God made me to know Him, to love Him and to serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him in the next.
I was six years old and already knew the important questions and answers of life. Today, many years later, I find that these answers are not satisfying.
I read books that inform me that most American citizens are philosophical Idealists. An Idealist is one who is conscious of a dual reality. There is matter and there is spirit. Thought, especially theoretical thought, is a characteristic activity of spirit. Consciousness is a property of spirit. Consciousness can be detached from the concrete human subject. Matter is not and cannot be considered as the ultimate reality.
When I plead skepticism to the assumption that most American citizens are Idealist I am informed that the vast majority of US citizens, when polled, indicate that they are religious or, if not religious, are “spiritual”.
Why are most Americans (I restrict this to Americans because I am not informed as to how others believe but I am convinced that this is a human reality) philosophical Idealists? We are Idealist because we are afraid of the dark. We want a hand to hold and do not trust that hand to be our fellows because we know our fellows are mostly a bunch of fools. We are Idealists because we seek security and we find security embedded in some form of intellectual constancy.
[Moved to the Religion folder - Dave W.]
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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 05:42:50 [Permalink]
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Coberst, you have already introduced this idea in the Lincoln/Gettysburg thread. It's maddening for me to hop around to several threads on limited time (I can not get into this forum at work). Stay with one subject and hash it to death! I hope nobody replies here.
Why don't you just continue this post in that thread where Valiant Dancer and Ricky are ready to discuss this? They have made comments about body vs spirit.
Go to this thread: http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2995 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 06:59:29 [Permalink]
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Ricky
Glad to see you get serious now and then. I may not have made it clear but I am not an Idealist. At least I do not choose to be. My culture is permeated with it and my childhood was saturated with it so I am not sure how deeply I may be into Idealism even though I consciously reject it.
What is your judgement as to how one can successfully walk away from such a reality? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 07:18:56 [Permalink]
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So the point of the OP can be restated as "why are people religious? Because they're scared and religion is comforting."
Why, coberst, take so many words to say so?
Apparently, you missed the link Dr. Mabuse posted just eight days ago, to an article titled Why Is Religion Natural? Within, you will probably find many reasons why "because people are scared and religion is comforting" is such a simple answer that it must be wrong.
Have you done any self-learning or critical thinking about "the cognitive study of religion?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 07:40:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is matter and there is spirit.
Just for future notice, this is a statement, and the way you put it, it makes it sound like its coming from you. To be more clear, you should say something like: "They say that....." I would have noticed that the top half contradicts your bottom half, but they way I replied, I read the top half and commented on it first, took a break, came back and then read the bottom half. So the error is kind of on both our hands.
quote:
Glad to see you get serious now and then.
When have I not been serious? Now I sometimes throw in an occasional joke here and there, but other than that, I am serious.
quote:
What is your judgement as to how one can successfully walk away from such a reality?
How can one not successfully walk away from a life of spiritualism? All one has to do is want to get away, and one has already walked away. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 12:07:16 [Permalink]
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I must say that I really do not comprehend "faith". How can anyone believe anything on faith alone? Just seems like a character flaw.
Adam
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 12:18:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
I must say that I really do not comprehend "faith". How can anyone believe anything on faith alone? Just seems like a character flaw.
Adam
I think it depends on how you define the word faith. For example, there are certain areas in which my friends are very trustworthy, so if they claim they're going to do something, I take it on faith that they will. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 13:14:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Would you trust them if you didn't know them at all?
No. That's why I differentiate between faith and blind faith. I don't know for sure that a human will always be trustworthy, no matter how trustworthy they've been in the past, but I will extend faith that they will.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Edit: Because you from past experiences have learned that you can trust them, you know in the future that you will most likely be able to also. Its like seeing the sun come up every morning. (Is this not again a case where correlation leads to causation? Sorry for the cross thread posting.)
In general, I don't find my human friends and relatives to be as reliable as the sun, so I don't really believe I'm using faith where the sun is concerned, but there is always that minute possiblity that something which has never happened before could happen tomorrow.  |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 20:57:01 [Permalink]
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| Sounds like confusion between "trust" and "faith". You trust that your friends will come through on their promise. I could be wrong, but for me "faith" always carries a spiritual connotation. You use faith when you are describing something that can not be explained another way....such as belief in a God. That is way I do not comprehend the meaning behind the word. Why would I ever believe anything that does not have some sort of reasonable (fact based) explanation? |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2004 : 05:29:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
SciFi Chick wrote:
I think it depends on how you define the word faith. For example, there are certain areas in which my friends are very trustworthy, so if they claim they're going to do something, I take it on faith that they will.
I love it when people use the roots of words correctly! SciFi is quite correct in having faith that her friends will do something. The root of faith is "trust"...the latin word fidere, which is where fidelity comes from. The religious connotation is secondary.
I suspect SciFi has faith that her friends will do something, but she doesn't have faith that the sun will rise in the morning. She has knowledge that the sun will rise in the morning. She knows it will. Knowledge is understanding the nature of something and we understand the nature of the sun, based on science and empirical evidence.
Etymology is fun:
Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF
- in faith : without doubt or question : VERILY
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2004 : 06:03:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wulfstan
I love it when people use the roots of words correctly! SciFi is quite correct in having faith that her friends will do something. The root of faith is "trust"...the latin word fidere, which is where fidelity comes from. The religious connotation is secondary.
Thank you Wulfstan. I'm fond of etymology as well. After all, I'm an English major. I realize that some words change in meaning over time, beyond all recognition, and fundies have done their damnedest (is that even a word?) to usurp the word faith and twist it beyond all recognition. I'm hoping to stop them. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wulfstan
I suspect SciFi has faith that her friends will do something, but she doesn't have faith that the sun will rise in the morning. She has knowledge that the sun will rise in the morning. She knows it will. Knowledge is understanding the nature of something and we understand the nature of the sun, based on science and empirical evidence.
Indeed. It would be shocking beyond all measure if the sun did not rise one day. Hmmm... that might be a good way for god/goddess to prove that he/she exists.
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"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Topic Locked
