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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2004 : 05:56:10
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Is a belief in things "supernatural" a mental illness?
http://www.geocities.com/bororissa/rel.html
"In the final analysis, then, religion is neurosis. This is why I remarked, at a symposium on sin and psychotherapy held by the American Psychological Association a few years ago, that from a mental health standpoint Voltaire's famous dictum should be reversed: for if there were a god, it would be necessary to uninvent him."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2004 : 06:02:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Is a belief in things "supernatural" a mental illness?
http://www.geocities.com/bororissa/rel.html
"In the final analysis, then, religion is neurosis. This is why I remarked, at a symposium on sin and psychotherapy held by the American Psychological Association a few years ago, that from a mental health standpoint Voltaire's famous dictum should be reversed: for if there were a god, it would be necessary to uninvent him."
Perhaps, but in small doses, it's harmless.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2004 : 06:16:00 [Permalink]
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Well, I think I just said this in another thread, but I don't think most mature people really believe in god much. I mean, they really don't expect god to do anything. Most of them learn to accept "God's Will," which pretty much means that shit happens.
It is subtly dangerous though. Not so subtly seen in the case of George Bush who seems to live in a world of contant battle between the forces of Good and Evil. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 01:02:02 [Permalink]
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No, I don't think religion represents mental illness. You have to look at how we define mental illness. While some may see it as deviance from the norm, and that may be true with definitions of neuroses, true mental illness is caused by brain dysfunction, not merely personality dysfunction.
In the past, mental illness was often seen as something different than physical illness, but it isn't. Mental illnesses results from either a physical or a neuro-chemical abnormality that can be detected, measured, and sometimes treated.
A normal brain can take in all kinds of stimuli or data and totally rearrange it into all sorts of complex structures like fundamental belief systems. That's just how our brains function. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/14/2004 01:05:21 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 04:13:39 [Permalink]
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| Ellis defines it as a neurosis. Does the word 'neurosis' have a place in scientific circles today? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 06:59:06 [Permalink]
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They seem to use the term 'disorder.'
Is religion a mental disorder?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 07:59:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
They seem to use the term 'disorder.'
Is religion a mental disorder?
I don't think religion is a mental disorder. A great number, perhaps the majority of the world's population are religious, many truly devout, and still are perfectly reasonable and indeed, generous and likeable people.
However, religion(s) seem to attract the mentally disordered. How many serial killers have had gods or demons tell them to do it? And then we have the Randall Terrys, Fred Phelps', and other meglomanical idiots who use it to further their own, perverted goals.
To repeat, while religion in general is probably the greatest evil that we have inflicted upon ourselves as a species, you don't have to be crazy to be a believer.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Wulfstan
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 10:16:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Filthy: I don't think religion is a mental disorder. A great number, perhaps the majority of the world's population are religious, many truly devout, and still are perfectly reasonable and indeed, generous and likeable people.
I agree, I don't think you can consider it a mental illness, for the reasons Bestskeptigal mentioned. I asked this in my post to Ricky's recent thread--how perfectly logical, sane people continue to believe in God. My father, for example, doesn't believe in Noah's Ark and all those stories, and he's a very logical person, yet his belief in God does not falter. I will say, though, that faith and church for him are very social, community bound things that reinforce the sense of belonging.
quote:
However, religion(s) seem to attract the mentally disordered. How many serial killers have had gods or demons tell them to do it? And then we have the Randall Terrys, Fred Phelps', and other meglomanical idiots who use it to further their own, perverted goals.
I think that people, like say Andrea Yates who said God told her to drown her five children, have a mental disorder where they can no longer control their emotions and actions, and use what is well-known to them, thereby removing responsibility for their actions. She was taught that God is omnipotent and all the rest all her life, so, religion is convenient and known to her. A lot of serial killers or murderers who used "God told me to do it" as an excuse tended to have strict religous backgrounds. There's so much shame and guilt built into religion, that it doesn't surprise me. Those who use it to further their goals, do so because it often works; like cult leaders, who put their particular spin on religion. On the flip side, what about those people who have had all sorts of problems, then "find God" and live more productive, happy lives?
quote:
To repeat, while religion in general is probably the greatest evil that we have inflicted upon ourselves as a species, you don't have to be crazy to be a believer.
No, and the thing is too, at least in the US, we are a secular nation. Most people in my office of 20 don't go to church-two are Jehovah Witnesses, one goes almost every Sunday. Many people are totally clueless as to what it says in the Bible even if they believe in God, and our laws are not based on the Ten Commandents(only two are really evident in our laws). We celebrate pagan holidays, people read horoscopes (something a priest in my Catholic high school said is SINNING)...but boy, try to take that "God" away from the Pledge and everyone comes out of the woodwork. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 14:24:16 [Permalink]
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I'd read that the brain was "wired for spiritual experiences" (which is vague, I know, but that's how I remembered it.) Anybody know if this is well-supported with research?
According to pbs, resesarchers can simulate (create?) mystical and religious experiences by using burst of electrical impulses. Also, this article says that certain parts of the brain are activated through meditation and prayer.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week510/cover.html
Not advocating anything at all here; just curious myself. This is an interesting thread.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 15:57:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I'd read that the brain was "wired for spiritual experiences" (which is vague, I know, but that's how I remembered it.) Anybody know if this is well-supported with research?
According to pbs, resesarchers can simulate (create?) mystical and religious experiences by using burst of electrical impulses. Also, this article says that certain parts of the brain are activated through meditation and prayer.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week510/cover.html
Not advocating anything at all here; just curious myself. This is an interesting thread.
A lot has been learned recently about how the brain organizes data. One of the pieces is that our brain first interprets the data, then stores it. So the original data isn't stored, instead the interpreted data is.
As new stimuli come in, the interpretations are more and more influenced by previous data collected. So a person with a religious belief system will interpret data in a religious context.
But that doesn't mean our brains are wired for religion. Our brains are wired to organize input in certain ways. One example for which research has shown evidence is we tend to see faces whether they are there or not. That would probably reflect hardwiring.
But I don't think there has been much research directly evaluating evidence we are wired for 'spiritual interpretations'. The article you linked to shows how spiritual experiences one might have, have a basis in pure neuro-chemical stimulation, but that doesn't get to the question of whether or not the brain is predisposed to spiritual interpretations.
To find that, you would have to find spiritual interpretations consistent across the board and you don't. If that were the case, you'd probably not find anyone doing the research in the first place. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 19:17:57 [Permalink]
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That's sort of my point. Maturity and saneness seems to be directly related to how little they actually believe in supernatural power.
Most sane, mature people who say they believe in god don't really think that god actually does anything. They believe that "God helps those that help themselves" and "let God's Will be done."
In other words, God just isn't a force that has much to do with their lives and shit just happens.
On the other hand, those that really believe that some supernatural force is going to save them keep their children from going to doctors and invade other countries thinking god is telling them what to do.
quote:
[I asked this in my post to Ricky's recent thread--how perfectly logical, sane people continue to believe in God. My father, for example, doesn't believe in Noah's Ark and all those stories, and he's a very logical person, yet his belief in God does not falter. I will say, though, that faith and church for him are very social, community bound things that reinforce the sense of belonging.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 00:29:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
That's sort of my point. Maturity and saneness seems to be directly related to how little they actually believe in supernatural power.
Most sane, mature people who say they believe in god don't really think that god actually does anything. They believe that "God helps those that help themselves" and "let God's Will be done."
In other words, God just isn't a force that has much to do with their lives and shit just happens.
On the other hand, those that really believe that some supernatural force is going to save them keep their children from going to doctors and invade other countries thinking god is telling them what to do.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[I asked this in my post to Ricky's recent thread--how perfectly logical, sane people continue to believe in God. My father, for example, doesn't believe in Noah's Ark and all those stories, and he's a very logical person, yet his belief in God does not falter. I will say, though, that faith and church for him are very social, community bound things that reinforce the sense of belonging.
I continue to be amazed at how very intelligent people just don't understand the principles of scientific evaluation. A very mature, intelligent person, might easily draw faulty conclusions. I don't think knowledge of logic and science are automatically coupled with saneness and maturity. I think we fail to teach the principles of evidence based thinking and understanding logic to the majority of persons in the USA anyway. I don't know about other countries except that many 3rd world countries have large populations of superstitious persons. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 04:36:02 [Permalink]
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| Well, certainly they are sane overall, but they are not sane when it comes to certain areas. Someone that compulsively washes their hands might be sane in every other area of their lives. It's still a mental disorder. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 06:33:27 [Permalink]
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Hmmmm. Thanks, beskeptigal.  So if the data itself is never actually stored, nobody's got a truly accurate memory. We only have the interpretation of our reality. Hm.
I think the extremely religious (like those who pray but don't take their kiddo to the doctor) may have a mental disorder, but I'm wondering if the religiosity might be a symptom of another disorder (rather than being a disorder in and of itself.)
If someone has a bona fide mental illness like schizophrenia, delusions can be a part of it, yes? And religious delusions are apparently pretty common.
Growing up, I saw this firsthand with our neighbor, who was manic depressive with schizophrenic tendenies (my mom was, of course, helping the family so we knew the details.) She (neighbor, not Mom) thought God was telling her to lock her children in the upstairs bedrooms all day, for example. I still think about those poor kiddos, even today, 25 years later.
As a side note I've long thought that many fundies and other religious extremists manifested some pretty serious control and anxiety issues with their "faith." Just my opinion, though. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 06:53:25 [Permalink]
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Good points all. Interesting story Renae. Your story makes a strong point.
Religion can be seen as a neutral tool used for both good and bad, certainly. However, I guess what I'm trying to grasp here is that to believe in things for which there is no good evidence requires some patterns of thought that may not be neutral.
When you talk to religious people what you'll often hear is something to the effect of "this can't be all that there is."
There's a popular song now by Los Lonely Boys, a great pop/rock song, but it says that "I know there's a better place than the one I'm living, How Far is Heaven?" In other words, this life isn't worth much (I'm not worth much), I'm going to try to make up a fantasy that gives my life some (fake) worth. If you don't think you're worth much, how do you behave? That doesn't mean that religious people are all drug addicts (though many are as some atheists probably are). Skeptics are not perfect people, either. However, they do not necessarily hold such negative beliefs up as an ideal and I think that's the problem with religion. It's the goal of religion to say that one only has worth if one holds false ideas about the world.
I'm saying this badly because I've not completely figured out what I mean, but there does seem to be something innately destructive about it.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 07:26:00 [Permalink]
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I know what you're saying, I think, Gorgo.
The whole concept of baptism, for example, has always felt unhealthy and weird to me (for lack of better terms). To assume that a baby is born with some vague original sin and is therefore dirty and needs to be cleansed....ugh. Sounds like the projection of the parents' sense of shame and inadequacy, or even masochism/sadism. Or something.
Seems like a better idea to assume the child is pure and good, and to love and nurture her within that framework. But what do I know?
Edited 'cause I'm the typo queen lately. |
| Edited by - Renae on 08/15/2004 07:28:02 |
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