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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2004 : 14:19:41
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Thus far, it sounds like a crock to me.
quote:
Pisces (Feb. 19 - March 20): Governed by Neptune and symbolized by the fish. Compassionate, introspective, artistic. Often dreamy and impractical. May be prone to schizophrenia, epilepsy or bipolar disorder.
It may sound like some kind of new, madcap astrology, but a number of scientists are becoming convinced that our birth month may predispose us to particular diseases later in life.
Studies have shown that schizophrenia is more common among those born in late winter or early spring. Multiple sclerosis is associated with births in April, May and June. And epilepsy occurs more frequently in those with birthdays from December to March.
http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/171836-6908-010.html
What studies? Where were the findings published? Was there a rigorous, peer review?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2004 : 16:02:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
What studies?
Anecdotal?
quote:
Where were the findings published?
You're probably lookin' at 'em.
quote:
Was there a rigorous, peer review?
By peer, do you mean other astrologists? 
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"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 20:12:42 [Permalink]
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A few years ago, when I had my bouts with astrology, one thing I learned about it's scientific view is that they determine what causes the changes from person to person by the birth month is due to the gravitional pull on the water inside the body of the mother and the baby. They conclude since that the gravitational pull of the moon creates the waves in the ocean, and other phenomenon, it must also have an effect on people.
When I learned about my personal astrological sign, Libra, I believed it was strikingly accurate. However, after so long, I realized it just takes character traits and describes them impeccably to the point that it's a long lenghthy description of, say, unbiased perspectives, an outstanding trait of my own. Well, I believe that everyone in this chat room has unbiased perspectives as well, making us "skeptics." (Well, on the other hand, we are biased towards the scientific view vs. the "other" view (be it theological, philosophical, aesthetic, etc.) so I guess we're not entirely unprejudiced) In any case, everyone is the same sign. People just do a good job of making all the different months coinicide with different personality traits.
But it's hard to completely disregard astrology to any personality relevancy in a person. The main thing is, no one does enough scientific research to conclude otherwise. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 20:27:25 [Permalink]
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satans_mom wrote:quote:
But it's hard to completely disregard astrology to any personality relevancy in a person. The main thing is, no one does enough scientific research to conclude otherwise.
Actually...
Not a few teachers of science have taken horoscopes and handed them out to students. Each Gemini (for example) student was given one marked "Gemini." The students were then to rate how well the horoscopes matched their lives. Ratings were consistently high. Only then do the teachers reveal that the horoscopes were snipped from some standard publication, but with all the sun-signs scrambled. In other words, what was labelled "Gemini" may have actually been Scorpio or Virgo or whatever. It wasn't Gemini.
How much more scientific research does one require before rejecting the popular notions of astrology?
And as to the gravitational pull of water by the planets, it's easy to calculate that a baseball at arm's length has more of a gravitational effect on the water in a person's body than the Moon, and even more so the more-distant bodies in the solar system. How much more research does one require before rejecting such a hypothesis? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 23:08:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
When I learned about my personal astrological sign, Libra, I believed it was strikingly accurate. However, after so long, I realized it just takes character traits and describes them impeccably to the point that it's a long lenghthy description of, say, unbiased perspectives, an outstanding trait of my own. Well, I believe that everyone in this chat room has unbiased perspectives as well, making us "skeptics." (Well, on the other hand, we are biased towards the scientific view vs. the "other" view (be it theological, philosophical, aesthetic, etc.) so I guess we're not entirely unprejudiced) In any case, everyone is the same sign. People just do a good job of making all the different months coinicide with different personality traits.
Look at the news paper the and read each and every one of the signs. I have yet to find one (out of like 20 different readings) that does not describe me. What is really amazing is how they can get them all to describe everyone. Its based upon two different strategies, being very general and hit and miss. The first is saying something like "You will smile today", but they do so in a way that it hides how general it is. The second, hit and miss, is where you count all the hits and ignore the misses. I have found many misses in a bunch of them, such as a generalization that I am a person of faith, but people tend to only remember the hits (I do remember the misses however, as I had already known of that tatic and was actively looking for them). |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2004 : 01:18:21 [Permalink]
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There is some legitimate research here. It's the stupid media that wants to put the astrology tag on where it doesn't belong and does nothing to advance the public's understanding of the news article.
Several studies have linked certain diseases with birth month. Here's one on brain cancer by the same researcher. http://en.ce.cn/Life/health/200408/16/t20040816_1519044.shtml
But the correlation has absolutely nothing to do with planetary influence so pardon me, but it sucks they don't report seriously. First, the correlation may be a coincidence. If it turns out to be a real correlation, the line of research will probably look toward seasonal infections rather than anything more mysterious.
Recently, there has been some research possibly correlating schizophrenia with flu infection during pregnancy. One more reason to get your flu shot this fall. (Recommended FOR pregnant women, BTW, not contraindicated.) |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2004 : 21:25:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
If during a cold winter, the mother did not cover up properly and her body temperature lowered, what effect would that have on the fetus? Or something along those lines.
Since astrology is based off the months globally (right?) if the effects are cause by the seasons, we should see a pattern like that in different places around the world, which would show that they are not related to the month but only the weather.
I wouldn't put too much emphasis on temperature as a causation. Fever, yes, leaving the blankets off, it'd have to be close to frostbite conditions to change core body temperature.
On another forum someone thought seasonal agriculture might have had an influence that led to astrology observations but I argued that was not consistent with climate variations within geographical areas, independent of the seasons. But one could hypothesize that seasonal agriculture could lead to some outcomes that correlated with birth month. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2004 : 22:51:05 [Permalink]
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| Well then, what does planetary alignment have to do with anything? I would assuredly feel that the alignment of the planets have an affect on the Earth, however, I feel I must be more educated on these topics. I'm sure as humans we are susceptible to the magnetic, gravitational, electric, and other effects, even if we are not as keen to them as other animals. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2004 : 23:00:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by satans_mom
Well then, what does planetary alignment have to do with anything? I would assuredly feel that the alignment of the planets have an affect on the Earth, however, I feel I must be more educated on these topics. I'm sure as humans we are susceptible to the magnetic, gravitational, electric, and other effects, even if we are not as keen to them as other animals.
The amount of gravity and other forces that occur with planetary alignment are just too insignificant to have an effect. A nearby mountain range, power lines, your coffee maker, a person standing next to you, all have more effect than Mars or aligned planets or whatever. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2004 : 00:30:15 [Permalink]
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satans_mom wrote:quote:
I'm sure as humans we are susceptible to the magnetic, gravitational, electric, and other effects, even if we are not as keen to them as other animals.
There aren't many animals which are affected by these things. But...
For creatures which are affected by electric fields, we find special cells or organs in them which detect electric fields. For creatures affected by magnetism, we find special cells or organs in them which detect magnetic fields. For creatures affected by light, we find special cells or organs in them which detect or use light (generally, these are either called "eyes" or "leaves").
Humans have eyes, and so can sense light. We've also got special nerves cells which sense pressure, and so we can "detect" gravity so far as it makes us feel pressure on our feet when we stand. We've also got very specialized organs on our ears which tell us which way is up (and a good amount of alcohol can make those organs give off bad info, leading to "bed spins"). But so far as I know, we've got nothing which detects electric or magnetic fields directly, and so there's no reason to believe that any such fields would have an effect on our personalities at birth.
And that's the other kicker: as just a handful of cells, we're much more likely to be "changed" by things early on in pregnancy. By the time of our birth, we're absolutely gigantic (and thus relatively immutable) compared to how we start out. To make sense, astrology really should be based upon time of conception. One would really think it should deal with the dates upon which sperm and egg were even created - since they can hang around for some time prior to meeting - but that's asking way too much. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Skyhawk
New Member
33 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2004 : 01:57:57 [Permalink]
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What about UV? Or high powered electromagnets? Or X-Rays? We can't naturally detect them, but we are affected by them. I mean, with neurons and nerves in a fetus there can be disruptions to the impulses. Though, it would require helluva field. As for temperature of the body, very small temperature changes in the womb might cause disruptions to the fetus. From what I learned in science class, if you apply ultrasound to the mother's womb long enough there is a slight temperature variation due to sound>heat conversion. My teacher told me that we are still not sure, but it might effect the fetus. I personally don't know...just keep a mental note for when i'm older :P.
As for gravity effecting, I did a rough calculation and effect from the Moon is practically nothing:
(assuming this was a 5kg mass, yes its large but it won't matter anyways)
Moon's effect: 1.65*10^-4 N
Earth's effect: 49.0 N
Net Force: 49.0 N using significant digits
So no effect there. A mother would be able to put more force on the womb just by walking or laying down.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2004 : 06:16:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Thus far, it sounds like a crock to me.
quote:
Pisces (Feb. 19 - March 20): Governed by Neptune and symbolized by the fish. Compassionate, introspective, artistic. Often dreamy and impractical. May be prone to schizophrenia, epilepsy or bipolar disorder.
It may sound like some kind of new, madcap astrology, but a number of scientists are becoming convinced that our birth month may predispose us to particular diseases later in life.
Studies have shown that schizophrenia is more common among those born in late winter or early spring. Multiple sclerosis is associated with births in April, May and June. And epilepsy occurs more frequently in those with birthdays from December to March.
http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/171836-6908-010.html
What studies? Where were the findings published? Was there a rigorous, peer review?
First of all, I am shocked (SHOCKED) that you are even curious on whether or not an assertation made by an ASTROLOGIST is scientific.
Astrologists, in an attempt to garner some legitamacy for their crap...... I mean art, will bandy about the words "study", "research", or "science". When used by astrologers, the words are always suspect unless accompianied with a source cite. Most often, there are no studies or research and "science" means they think they did it.
When I read the assertation, my BS sensor flew off the scale.
And this from a Virgo with a Bad Moon rising. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 08/23/2004 06:17:33 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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