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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2004 : 08:27:57
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Whilst researching for another essay, I happened to stumble across this:
quote:
A demonically-contaminated person, Christian or non-Christian, simply needs supernatural healing. 'Casting out' a demon is a divine-healing function and so should not be labelled an 'exorcism' as though it fell into a unique category, for this error has helped to cloud the issue with pagan ideas.
The first step in this healing is usually to understand the cause of the vulnerability, for the contamination will recur, as Jesus warned (Matt.12:), if its cause is not adequately dealt with.
http://www.81a.f2s.com/lloydthomas/6-ChurchLifeIssues/demons.html
I can understand why medieval peoples might have believed in demons and angels, but in today's educated society I fail to see how these myths can be perpetuated. The article contains some evidence, all of it ancedotal. :roll eyes:
Sadly, this piece is quite well written.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 09/01/2004 08:30:26
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2004 : 08:39:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Whilst researching for another essay, I happened to stumble across this:
quote:
A demonically-contaminated person, Christian or non-Christian, simply needs supernatural healing. 'Casting out' a demon is a divine-healing function and so should not be labelled an 'exorcism' as though it fell into a unique category, for this error has helped to cloud the issue with pagan ideas.
The first step in this healing is usually to understand the cause of the vulnerability, for the contamination will recur, as Jesus warned (Matt.12:), if its cause is not adequately dealt with.
http://www.81a.f2s.com/lloydthomas/6-ChurchLifeIssues/demons.html
I can understand why medieval peoples might have believed in demons and angels, but in today's educated society I fail to see how these myths can be perpetuated. The article contains some evidence, all of it ancedotal. :roll eyes:
Sadly, this piece is quite well written.
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2398
http://www.freedomkeepers.com
http://www.boblarson.org/
It remains among us in the extremist Evangelical Christian subsects. The middle link is run by my younger brother. You can see the full exchange that we had here on the top link. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 08:59:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I can understand why medieval peoples might have believed in demons and angels, but in today's educated society I fail to see how these myths can be perpetuated.
See, that's were you're going wrong. After having spend some time at some of the new creationist forums and websites, and having lost some brain cells in the mean time, I can only come to the conclusion that current society has a lot of aspects, but education is not one which is wide spread.
By the by, anyone noticed the new creationist trend of erecting 'discussion' forums 'for creationists only'? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 09/01/2004 09:01:05 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 09:03:35 [Permalink]
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| By now you should know better than to be surprised by anything people believe. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 10:40:07 [Permalink]
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| There is a book sold in many Christian bookstores called 'He Came to Set the Captives Free' by Rebecca Brown. This book is supposed to be non-fiction, and it's insane. She claims to have seen werewolves, demons, and Satan himself. Says she was a high priestess in Satanism or something. Many christians believe this sort of thing, it's not uncommon. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 11:04:40 [Permalink]
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Val, I now recall that thread. The whole thing makes me think that this topic should be shifted over to E/C and the discussion should be upon how an evolutionary basket case such as ourselves could possibly survive.
I'm currently working on St. Andrew's Fire (ergot poisoning) in the Middle Ages and it's so interesting that I momentarily forgot that we are members of a species of blithering dingbats.
Thanks, I think, for the links and the reality check.
Edited to welcome Baxter. Hi, bro! Great to see ya here! I still have a couple of writings to go and I'm thinking of doing one on lycanthrophy, origins and so forth.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/01/2004 11:17:37 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 16:43:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Filthy:
I'm currently working on St. Andrew's Fire (ergot poisoning) in the Middle Ages and it's so interesting that I momentarily forgot that we are members of a species of blithering dingbats.
I read a book that I think was called St. Andrew's Fire. It was about how the folks of a small town in France ate some bad bread from the local bakery. Of course, it was ergot poisoning. A whole lot of people on a shit load of "acid" without knowing it can be trouble... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 20:04:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Filthy:
I'm currently working on St. Andrew's Fire (ergot poisoning) in the Middle Ages and it's so interesting that I momentarily forgot that we are members of a species of blithering dingbats.
I read a book that I think was called St. Andrew's Fire. It was about how the folks of a small town in France ate some bad bread from the local bakery. Of course, it was ergot poisoning. A whole lot of people on a shit load of "acid" without knowing it can be trouble...
I read the same book back in the '70s. The title is The Day of Saint Anthony's Fire . Can't remember the author; the outbreak, IIRC, was in the early '50s.
The contaminated bread was visibly "off", but people ate it anyway. Historical ergotism, as it's also known, is so rare nowadays that diagnosing it could take a while; it's not the sort of thing that modern doctors see often enough to be familiar with.
There was also an episode of Quincy that dealt with an outbreak on a cruise ship.
Edited to add: The outbreak was in Pont St Esprit, France, in 1951. The book was by John Grant Fuller and is out of print. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
| Edited by - ktesibios on 09/01/2004 20:13:51 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 02:53:35 [Permalink]
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It's fascinating stuff. In the Middle Ages, the infected, off-colored kernels were thought to be just part of the plant and got milled with the rest. The European peasantry used a coarse, rye flour to thicken their pottage and bake a rough, heavy bread. As a result, ergot poisoning was pretty common, especally after a cold winter and a wet spring and summer. It led to all sorts things including accusations of demon possession.
It's as much fun to research and write about as the plague.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 03:01:32 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, thank Owsley for ergot-25. Who's your hero--Kesey or Leary? Is everyone in here too young to know what I'm talking about? |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 06:10:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Yeah, thank Owsley for ergot-25. Who's your hero--Kesey or Leary? Is everyone in here too young to know what I'm talking about?
I'm just young enough to not quite know the full meaning.
I'm assuming Leary of "tune in, turn on, drop out" fame.
I was watching a program where someone suggested that the Salem witch trials happened due to ergot poisoning. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 08:45:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tim:
Yeah, thank Owsley for ergot-25. Who's your hero--Kesey or Leary? Is everyone in here too young to know what I'm talking about?
It was Dr. Albert Hofman who first synthesized LSD 25 (D-lysergic acid diethylamide)at the Sandoz Labs back in 1938. In the early to mid sixties it was possible to get Sandoz acid legally in the US.
Anyhow, Owsley filled the void when acid became illegal. His was "Da Kine." Kesey and his Merry Pranksters and Leary both made contributions to the "culture." Personally, I thought Leary was funny but crazy... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 08:57:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Yeah, thank Owsley for ergot-25. Who's your hero--Kesey or Leary? Is everyone in here too young to know what I'm talking about?
I've found Leary merely weird, thus, my choice is Ken Kesey. Such a pity that he only wrote one book.
Yeah, I know where you're comin' from. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 09:09:30 [Permalink]
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Ken Kesey. Love him. One Flew Over the Cuckoos's Nest and Sometimes a Great Notion.
Read also, Tom Wolfe's Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 09:24:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Filthy:
I've found Leary merely weird, thus, my choice is Ken Kesey. Such a pity that he only wrote one book.
Besides "One flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" he also wrote "Sometimes a Great Notion."
quote:
Kesey's next novel, SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION appeared two years later and was also made into a film, this time directed by Paul Newman.
Later:
quote:
In the early 1970s Kesey returned to writing and published KESEY'S GARAGE SALE (1973). His later works include the children's book LITTLE TRICKER THE SQUIRREL MEETS BIG DOUBLE THE BEAR (1990) and SAILOR SONG (1992), a futuristic tale about an Alaskan fishing village and Hollywood film crew. LAST GO ROUND (1994), Kesey's last book, was an account of a famous Oregon rodeo written in the form of pulp fiction.
http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/quickstep/1103/kesey_ken.htm
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 09:28:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Ken Kesey. Love him. One Flew Over the Cuckoos's Nest and Sometimes a Great Notion.
Read also, Tom Wolfe's Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.
Done it.
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was a superb work. Alas, the rest of Kesey's writing didn't match it. The title was especally poetic taken in context with the text. You see, cuckoos don't build nests; rather they parasitize the nests of other birds and even their parential care.
quote:
"One flew East,
And one flew west,
And one flew over the cuckoo's nest."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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