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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2004 : 23:09:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
I agree that Creationists do not have the answers to go against most or any science questions, but what has science actually come up with?
Well, quite a lot actually. What is it specifically you question?
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I have heard a lot about theories, and what is the best answer for some big questions but never any absolutes.
No, never any absolutes. Do you see that as a fault of science? I see it as a strength.
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It seems to me that science has become an entity of itself. Where as science is the god and it's faithful worshippers sheilding it from potential harm.
Any similarities between science and religion are superficial. For instance, us (the faithful) do not attempt to shield it from harm. Go ahead, attack it. Kick it. Give it your best shot. Science is only made stronger by such blows. Not so with religion.
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Im not saying that science will not come up with life's biggest answers, and can prove it as FACT............Im saying until such time maybe tone it down a little.......you little gods
Life's biggest answers will probably never be proven fact. That's why they are called "big questions." But some of us are trying to answer those questions honestly and with the facts at hand. Others are not. I don't see an attack on Creationism as an attack on their conclusions, so much as it is an attack on their approach, which only incidentally leads to bad conclusions.
If you don't understand that, you don't understand the entire debate.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/12/2004 23:13:16 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2004 : 23:41:18 [Permalink]
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Fireballn, what you fail to conceive is the difference between facts and explanations. Scientists go out in search for facts, these are also known as observations. What scientists then try to do with these facts is combine them, in unique ways, and with this we get what is called a theory.
A theory will never be a fact, and like H. Humbert said, this is a strong point of science. We will never know the absolute truth, and science accepts this. What we are in search for is basically an asymptotic approach towards the truth. Will we be at the absolute truth in 30 years through science? No, but I'll bet you everything I have we will be a lot closer.
If you wish to believe in an absolute truth, that is your business. But it is not science. If you wish to believe that some being created everything and thats all there is too it, that is your business. But it is not science. If you wish to believe that your life will continue on after death, that is your business. But is not science. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 09/12/2004 23:42:14 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2004 : 23:41:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Im not saying that science will not come up with life's biggest answers, and can prove it as FACT............Im saying until such time maybe tone it down a little.......you little gods
Tone what down? You sound offended by the fact that we don't accept nonsense answers to questions. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2004 : 23:54:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Life's biggest answers will probably never be proven fact. That's why they are called "big questions." But some of us are trying to answer those questions honestly and with the facts at hand. Others are not. I don't see an attack on Creationism as an attack on their conclusions, so much as it is an attack on their approach, which only incidentally leads to bad conclusions.
Well your efforts are most admirable. Well creation nor science has come up with any real truths have they? Creation has a lot of talk and science has a lot of theories that has been gathered from a few thousand years at the most.... that has come up with more theories HUmmmmm seems to me anything could be taught to our children growing up, relying on the wisdom of the world. A master Alien race, or Hinduism could be the true meaning of life..........maybe we should teach them all in school since no one knows for sure |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 00:07:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Fireballn, what you fail to conceive is the difference between facts and explanations. Scientists go out in search for facts, these are also known as observations. What scientists then try to do with these facts is combine them, in unique ways, and with this we get what is called a theory.
A theory will never be a fact, and like H. Humbert said, this is a strong point of science. We will never know the absolute truth, and science accepts this. What we are in search for is basically an asymptotic approach towards the truth. Will we be at the absolute truth in 30 years through science? No, but I'll bet you everything I have we will be a lot closer.
If you wish to believe in an absolute truth, that is your business. But it is not science. If you wish to believe that some being created everything and thats all there is too it, that is your business. But it is not science. If you wish to believe that your life will continue on after death, that is your business. But is not science.
This is my point, there are mysteries in science where science has to take a leap of faith.........the big bang for instance it is taught in school as fact where it is not a fact...this is my problem hey if it happened great ill be its first backer.....but if you don't know, do not put it in the text book. Or put " We really are not sure about the origin of the universe but our best guess is that all time and matter happened at the big bang." or it was created by the muslim god or the hindu or...............ect |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 05:02:15 [Permalink]
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| Fireballn, I've heard Creationist talking about something they call Uniformiatarianism, as if it is a religion. Is this the source of your grievance against science (and teaching science in school)? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 08:39:51 [Permalink]
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Fireballn:
You are focused on the way science treats absolutes versus laws or therory.
There are literally mounds of data that support evolution, and the age of the Earth. The facts and the obsevations are overwhelming that evolution exists.
There is no evidence for the 7 day creation. There is no evidence of a global flood. There is no evidence that modern mammals lived when the dinasours lived.
Pointing out that science is cautious about stating absolutes, only tries to sidestep the fact that science is based on observation and facts and creationism is based on Myth. Whether the myth is Judeo-Christian, Hindu or any other religion is irrelevant - they are still just ancient mythical stories.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 10:34:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
This is my point, there are mysteries in science where science has to take a leap of faith.........the big bang for instance it is taught in school as fact where it is not a fact...this is my problem hey if it happened great ill be its first backer.....but if you don't know, do not put it in the text book. Or put " We really are not sure about the origin of the universe but our best guess is that all time and matter happened at the big bang." or it was created by the muslim god or the hindu or...............ect
I have never seen a textbook that describes the Big Bang as an absolute fact. I was taught in school that the big bang was the most likely explanation given the current evidence. Science is "a way of knowing" and it explains our universe and the laws that govern it better than any other explanation. That's not how I feel about it...that's a fact. Now most of the other explanations may make you feel more comfortable with the loss of a loved one or even facing one's own eventual death (and that's only if you believe what they are telling you) but they sure won't help you figure out how to land a man on the moon. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 15:55:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
This is my point, there are mysteries in science where science has to take a leap of faith.........the big bang for instance it is taught in school as fact where it is not a fact...this is my problem hey if it happened great ill be its first backer.....but if you don't know, do not put it in the text book. Or put " We really are not sure about the origin of the universe but our best guess is that all time and matter happened at the big bang." or it was created by the muslim god or the hindu or...............ect
You show a common misunderstanding that a scientific theory is in some way a guess of some sorts. Theories are not guesses. The main theories of science, those of Relativity, Evolution, and so on are by far not guesses. When we say fact, we are describing 1 obeservation. Evolution and Theory or Relativity describe those observations.
Things always change. Science, unlike religion, changes with new evidence. It would be idiotic not to.
Edit:
If you have a theory that has more evidence than evolution and explains why we have diversity of life as well as the fossil record and DNA, please, step up and claim your Nobel Prize. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 09/13/2004 15:57:46 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 21:29:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
the big bang for instance it is taught in school as fact where it is not a fact
That is a fine example of willfull ignorance in action. If you had ever once read a text on cosmology or even basic astronomy you'd recognize the lie you are telling there.
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Well creation nor science has come up with any real truths have they?
Well, creationism has a score of zero, but science has come up with thousands of truths. You take advantage of them everyday of your life, and probably don't even recognize it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2004 : 10:57:02 [Permalink]
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| Does creationism not conflict with nearly everything? It seems to me that all the subjects, especially sciences, are so interwoven that to believe in creationism is to reject, well, nearly everything. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2004 : 16:31:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
quote:
Consider it a challenge wherein you think of some word ending in "-logy," and see if its premises and/or conclusions are rendered "invalid" by some part of the tons of creationist argumentation over the decades.
Okay,I got one--Theology! Does that count?
True. They violate Theology in so many conceivable ways it's almost funny. I still don't get why Cain would build a city for a whole of four people, but that's just me. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2004 : 00:31:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Baxter
Does creationism not conflict with nearly everything? It seems to me that all the subjects, especially sciences, are so interwoven that to believe in creationism is to reject, well, nearly everything.
Hmmm... what about cardiology? :-) |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2004 : 00:54:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
quote:
Originally posted by Baxter
Does creationism not conflict with nearly everything? It seems to me that all the subjects, especially sciences, are so interwoven that to believe in creationism is to reject, well, nearly everything.
Hmmm... what about cardiology? :-)
Or psychology? I think creationism is a by-the-book example of wishful thinking and self-deception.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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