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Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - 10/08/2004 : 13:23:59
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I opened this topic to get help in writing one of the arguments that I will use at the skeptictimes debate.
For all of those unfamiliar witht he HERV argument, talkorigins.org has a pretty good explanation: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses
I would greatly appreciate any references (especially primary lit) that pertains to the following points:
1. Production of ERV sequences: Explain how viral sequences become part of an organisms genome. Show that the insertions are random and rare.
2. ERV and Common Ancestory: Explain the pattern that would be expected if common ancestory was true. In other words, explaint he predictions born out of the theory of evolution. Then, explain how the pattern of ERV's in orangutans, gorillas, chimps, and humans supports the cladistic tree derived from the morphological comparisons.
3. ERV and Intelligent Design: Show that viral insertions do not differ from any other mutation. That is, ERV's can be either neutral, beneficial, or detrimental to fitness. Also, explain that a designer would not have to adhere to the pattern predicted by evolution (eg "Why would God be required to follow the pattern predicted by evolution? Simply, he isn't required to do so."). Also, require that anyone claiming that all ERV sequence impact "design" must use evidence to support their claim.
Any other suggestions?
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2004 : 17:11:15 [Permalink]
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| Actually, WinAce's posts at the start of that thread appear to be well-sourced, themselves. And good grief, the thread has over 200 posts in it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2004 : 03:44:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Actually, WinAce's posts at the start of that thread appear to be well-sourced, themselves. And good grief, the thread has over 200 posts in it.
It's interesting that the posts of the first three pages of the thread are just ways to bump the thread. After a month's time, someone belonging to "another church" asks for a clarification of the term "endigenous retroviruse". The thread started at the end of February.
Page 4 and forward is dedicated to a theist wanting clarification on issues regarding how we can tell retrovirus-DNA from animal cells and such. It isn't until the end of August before anyone seriously tried to refute it.
(edited for grammar) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/09/2004 13:18:19 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 03:53:17 [Permalink]
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| As is a current practice on most more technical posts on Christianforums. These tend to be ignored by creationists most of the time. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
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Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 11:15:27 [Permalink]
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"a map of over 3,000 active retroviral insertions of which none occur at the same nucleotide position"
I think one of the biggest problems is the lack of comprehension, The previous statment might as well say, srkhfoihrfn sjf psrjpfg sojrgpfijhe phgpiojjf, DUH! About one in a million creationists would understand you. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 11:31:07 [Permalink]
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To quote a quote from another thread...
It's to bad ignorance isn't painfull.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 18:27:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
"a map of over 3,000 active retroviral insertions of which none occur at the same nucleotide position"
I think one of the biggest problems is the lack of comprehension, The previous statment might as well say, srkhfoihrfn sjf psrjpfg sojrgpfijhe phgpiojjf, DUH! About one in a million creationists would understand you.
Does this sound better?
"It was found that even after 3,000 infections by three different retroviruses there was not one viral insertion that occured at the same spot in the DNA." |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 22:09:50 [Permalink]
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| You may have to define retrovirus and explain what reverse transcriptase does.... |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 22:34:10 [Permalink]
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When does this debate start again? When are the first rounds of posts going up? And are the two opposing arguments posted simultaneously, or does one side have to go first?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 06:12:08 [Permalink]
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Ricky wrote:quote:
Edit: first post is supposed to occur in 3 days (Friday).
Which I guess is just another example of tkster's unreliability... After all, in the debate thread, he wrote, "Peptide you have until October 14th to post." And the 14th is Thursday.
Actually, it says "until" the 14th, which could mean that posting after tomorrow would be "late." Who the heck knows how he's going to interpret his own words? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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