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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 10/11/2004 : 01:19:32
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First the president of South Africa says HIV drugs cause AIDS and the HIVirus doesn't. And now we have the Nobel Prize winner making the claim HIV was made to kill blacks. This is really sad because it will set back efforts to deal with HIV. There is distrust for HIV drugs and this will add to it.
news linkquote:
Nairobi - Kenyan ecologist Wangari Maathai, the first African woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize, on Saturday reiterated her claim that the AIDS virus was a deliberately created biological agent.
"Some say that Aids came from the monkeys, and I doubt that because we have been living with monkeys (since) time immemorial, others say it was a curse from God, but I say it cannot be that.
"Us black people are dying more than any other people in this planet," Maathai told a press conference ...
The science of where the HIVirus originated and its DNA structure leaves no doubt it wasn't man made and isn't a biological weapon. The widespread belief in incredible rumors boggles the mind.
In addition to this there has been the polio vaccine rumor that it was really a drug to sterilize the population.
news linkquote:
Extremist Islamic clerics have led the boycott, claiming the polio vaccine is part of a U.S.-led plot to render Nigeria's Muslims infertile or infect them with AIDS.
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 06:44:47 [Permalink]
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I don't know, but sterilize some people would be a great idea. Especially in poor countries. A harsh idea, maybe, but beneficial.
Anyway, wild ideas aside, that is pretty sad. Of course the black population dies in greater amounts, but if you consider most of it is, sadly, in a state of poverty, that the medicides are expensive and that little to no profilaxic (sp?) culture reaches the poorer countries of Africa and such, it all makes sense. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 09:12:08 [Permalink]
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In 1988, when I was a senior in HS, some of my classmates and I went to the USSR (Moscow, and St. Petersburg specifically). We hooked up with some of our peers in both places (other teenagers) organized through our schools. We visited some cool places, experienced the culture, talked about issues, ect...
My point....
Almost all of the people we talked to about the issues of the day (war, aids, mtv, ect...) believed that HIV was a weapon created by the USA, and either deliberately or accidentally released.
So, it's not exactly a new rumor. Essentially, it's been floating around out there since HIV/AIDS first became a public health issue.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 13:17:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Be careful where you go with this. There is one person who we all know tried this idea, Hitler. Now I know you don't mean it to go that far, however where is the cut off limit? Which diseases should we sterilize and which should we not sterilize? Where is it no longer right to sterilize someone? Should the rights of the few be able to be violated to protect the safety of the general population? And how dangerous does this threat have to be? Etc. etc.
Ah, yes. So many questions without answers.
However, it makes you quite anxious to see thousands and thousands of families below the line of misery spitting out more and more people to increase the snowball. My family, itself, was composed of a mother (my grandmother) and fourteen kids. From those, six survived up to adolescence. My aunt, herself, had about eight children (many of those didn't go too far), and her daughter, my cousin, is on the same track. They, too, are just a notch above total misery.
Not that, were I in the government, would do such a thing as sterilize people - China managed it quite well without such extremes, but their outcomes isn't really that pretty.
Y'know, that'd make one hell of a controversial book. Maybe I'll write it someday and exploit the possibilities ;) |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 22:07:42 [Permalink]
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Alot of the world isn't ready to face the possible need for population control. The religious and some otehr zealots defend their "right" to breed indefinitely without regard to the planet's capacity to support life.
It's not an issue at the moment (and it may verywell never become one if we allow science to continue to help us produce enough food, ect...).
It's a very messy issue..... |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 02:19:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Alot of the world isn't ready to face the possible need for population control. The religious and some otehr zealots defend their "right" to breed indefinitely without regard to the planet's capacity to support life.
It's not an issue at the moment (and it may verywell never become one if we allow science to continue to help us produce enough food, ect...).
It's a very messy issue.....
It all distills off to that we will control our population or nature will do it for us. The methods nature uses for this sort of thing are pretty ghastly.
I am reminded of an experiment I read of many years ago; back in the '60s, I think it was. It was done with a mouse population. The researchers set up a very roomy habitate and stocked it with a few pairs of lab mice. These mice wanted for nothing, always having a clean enviornment and plenty of food and water, and the places to hide so important to a small rodent.
Time passed. The mice happily produced new mice. When the population reached a certain level, odd behavior began to appear. Some of the mice became 'pretty.' These would spend virtually all of their non-feeding, waking hours grooming themselves. And by this time, new litters of mice, of which virtually all would survive, were arriving almost by the minute.
Their behavior became more and more erratic as the crowding increasd. Some became vicious loners and others actually formed gangs of sorts and attacked other mice. The population began to die.
In the end, the whole colony died out, right down to the last, wretched rodent.
Interesting, no?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 08:11:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
It all distills off to that we will control our population or nature will do it for us. The methods nature uses for this sort of thing are pretty ghastly.
I am reminded of an experiment I read of many years ago; back in the '60s, I think it was. It was done with a mouse population. The researchers set up a very roomy habitate and stocked it with a few pairs of lab mice. These mice wanted for nothing, always having a clean enviornment and plenty of food and water, and the places to hide so important to a small rodent.
Time passed. The mice happily produced new mice. When the population reached a certain level, odd behavior began to appear. Some of the mice became 'pretty.' These would spend virtually all of their non-feeding, waking hours grooming themselves. And by this time, new litters of mice, of which virtually all would survive, were arriving almost by the minute.
Their behavior became more and more erratic as the crowding increasd. Some became vicious loners and others actually formed gangs of sorts and attacked other mice. The population began to die.
In the end, the whole colony died out, right down to the last, wretched rodent.
Interesting, no?
It's a pattern we can see in more civilised countries, can't we? Humans 'becoming pretty' in their search for perfect physical appeal. Then suddenly they start diminishing.
Quite interesting indeed.
Maybe we don't need sterilisation after all. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 10:43:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
I don't know, but sterilize some people would be a great idea. Especially in poor countries. A harsh idea, maybe, but beneficial.
Be careful where you go with this. There is one person who we all know tried this idea, Hitler. Now I know you don't mean it to go that far, however where is the cut off limit? Which diseases should we sterilize and which should we not sterilize? Where is it no longer right to sterilize someone? Should the rights of the few be able to be violated to protect the safety of the general population? And how dangerous does this threat have to be? Etc. etc.
Ricky, the idea of the forced sterilization of "inferiors" wasn't original with Hitler. In fact, the eugenics movement, which produced laws in 35 states right here in the USA allowing for the forced sterilization of people who were considered genetically unfit- and produced something like 60,000 of these atrocities, was a considerable inspiration to the Nazis.
Many of the victims had, in fact, no actual hereditary disease to pass on to their children, but were selected on the basis of membership in a socioeconomic group considered "inferior" by the eugenicists.
In 1942 the Journal of the American Psychiatric Association published an article, originally delivered at their annual meeting, calling for the killing of mentally retarded children- and gave it positive editorial comment.
Legally forced sterilizations continued in the USA into the 1970s; there's evidence that in the mid-70s and before, American Indian women were being coerced by government-paid doctors into "consenting" to be sterilized.
Similar programs operated in other countries, notably Sweden and Finland.
So, you needn't go as far as Germany to find very Nazi-like ideas about "racial hygiene" being advocated by respectable intellectuals and enshrined in law. You can find it right here at home.
A few resources on this that I've found on the Web:
http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/forcedsterilization.html
http://www.dickshovel.com/IHSSterPol.html
http://www.lansingcitypulse.com/040922/features/health.asp
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=13130&intcategoryid=5
http://kpope.com/eugenics.php
http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/chapter1.php
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 12:47:48 [Permalink]
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Well I for one am for the forced sterilzation of 95% of the population, random of course, and Ill be first in line...
Actually to prevent fraud and redistribute wealth all rich people will be forced... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 20:54:56 [Permalink]
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Eugenics will never go away.
Because, simply, it would work. Over time you COULD breed humans for desired traits.
The issue is, as I believe Dave_W mentioned in another thread on a similiar topic, who gets to choose the traits?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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