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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2004 : 14:24:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
I don't think there's ever been a successful, 'true' democracy in the Middle East... why would Iraq be an exception?
Would Israel qualify? |
Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this piece of advice is pricesless', she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes' said Tiffany.
'Good now...If you trust in yourself.."
'Yes..?'
'..and believe in your dreams...'
'yes?'
'...and follow your star..' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'You'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.' |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 15:54:08 [Permalink]
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As opposed to what? Americans at the word of some little Texan in big boots?
quote:
All you have to do is see these guys are willing to kill themselves and/or any innocents they can get their hands on at the word of their local cleric.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 17:13:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Would Israel qualify?
Hm, true. There's Israel. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 18:31:49 [Permalink]
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There is an answer for the situation in Iraq, but W never had the balls (and neither will Kerry once he, hopefully, inherits the situation) to do it.
Short of a 100% withdrawl from the country, which would have largescale ramifications we are not prepared to deal with either, there is something we should be doing while we remain.
Now that we are there, we have an obligation to enforce order of some kind. Iraq will continue to kill US soldiers on a daily basis until we do one thing.
Use excessive force. Recognize no geography or location as a haven to anyone who threatens US troops. Drop 5000lb bombs on any position from which US troops are attacked from. Tell the people of Iraq that we will level their "holy places" unless they prevent their own people from fighting us from inside them. None of their buildings are worth the life of even one of our troops.
Either that, or leave. And I think leaving is probably the worse of those two options. I can see alot of people getting killed if we just up and pull out now.
But as for any reason or justification for invading in the first place? Well, oil. (I didn't say it was a good reason, but it's a reason) All you have to do to understand the motivation of oil is examine the $$ the US gives in subsidies and tax breaks to our oil companies. Something like $80Billion a year (I used to have a source for this.... can't find it, grrrr). Our alternate energy research budget is less than $2billion a year. Oil companies are the wealthiest and most powerfull companies in the world.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 18:55:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Either that, or leave. And I think leaving is probably the worse of those two options. I can see alot of people getting killed if we just up and pull out now.
And throwing a shitload of bombs over them won't kill just as many people?
You see... I doubt that'd ever work. Oh, sure, they'd stop killing American soldiers - for the moment. Then it'd just start all over again. I doubt you can pressure those people by violence alone.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think anything short of a total annihilation of Iraq would stop them. Maybe I'm just delusional. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 20:10:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Either that, or leave. And I think leaving is probably the worse of those two options. I can see alot of people getting killed if we just up and pull out now.
And throwing a shitload of bombs over them won't kill just as many people?
The initial loss of life will be huge, and it would increase the anti-American feelings massively. Eventually, the general population would probably start to take active measures against the guerrilla. Still, the hate against America will only rise even more.
What needs to be done is showing that America is their friends, and that America expects no favour, and that they are doing this without selfish motives.
Keeping American oil or other companies there, or even subsidiaries, is ample proof that Americas only real interest is money and oil. Non-western countries should be stimulated to help in the rebuild process, like installing clean water and sanitary infrastructure, and running it until such time that Iraqis can take over. Western control over rebuilding-efforts is tainted by Arabic distrust.
Mosques should be rebuilt/established nation wide, for Muslims to worship Allah. Many views the American invasion as religion war. Even some American officers say so, and if you go to an American Christian Internet-forum like Rapture Ready, you'll find many people sharing that opinion. To set up proper places of worship, maybe the Iraqi people can be convinced that this is not a religion war. That would be a good move to gain their trust.
(edited for spelling) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/15/2004 20:11:50 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 23:00:52 [Permalink]
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Was there any good reason, hell no.
Does Bush think there was a good reason? From the last debate he said, "God wants to bring freedom to all people."
I just hope Bush doesn't think he's part of 'God's plan' to bring on the End Times and Armageddon like you hear some of those Fundies babble about. Bush seems just stupid enough to believe that. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 02:07:36 [Permalink]
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I'm not convinced that Bush is anything like as devout as he puts on. Hell, he's lied about everything else. Further, I think that his handlers keep him on a very short leash. Without them, he's no more than just another sociopath with a (in)famous name.
As for democracies in the Mideast, I don't think you can count Israel. Israel was taken over by europeans, who brought their own ideas of government with them. Israel is an anomoly; a modern democracy in a land with fuedal traditions going back far beyond the Middle Ages.
If democracy is to come to those countries, they will have to adopt it for themselves. The idiologs over here will never be likely to impose it upon them, at least not on any kind of a perminent basis.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 14:26:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
And throwing a shitload of bombs over them won't kill just as many people?
Nope.
I'll reference Veitnam after the US withdrew to support my assertion. After we left, millions were slaughtered.
A similair ideological situation exists in Iraq. Several different groups who hate one another, and a few other countries (Iran, Turkey) who are itching to murder some Iraqis. The loss of life would be 100 times worse if we left, than if we stayed and enforced order with excessive force.
It's not a situation we should be in, in the first place. But, unfortunately, we have a warmongering crowd now in control of the government. Hopefully we can elect them out of office in a couple weeks.
There is no good way to exit Iraq currently. We need to leave the place in a state of order, and I don't see how we can do it.... |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 20:44:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
And throwing a shitload of bombs over them won't kill just as many people?
Nope.
I'll reference Veitnam after the US withdrew to support my assertion. After we left, millions were slaughtered.
.....
Are you talking about the Cambodian killing fields? Because they wouldn't have happened had we not bombed Cambodia.
Are you counting how many Vietnamese would have died had we stayed?
I am not assessing here what will happen when we leave Iraq, but be careful with those fast and loose facts you attribute to US pullout of Vietnam. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 21:13:49 [Permalink]
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follow up to my last post
The following site lists #s of war dead as estimated by each of multiple sources. Go to the site to see all the dead during all phases of the war. Remember, the Vietnam war was essentially a civil war we stuck our troops into. The aftermath does not list millions killed as Dude has stated. In Cambodia, there were .5 to 1 million killed after the US left according to this citation.
Death Tolls for the Major Wars and Atrocities of the Twentieth Century
quote:
Vietnamese Civil War, final phase, 1973-75
Young, citing Pentagon estimates:
ARVN: 26,500 (1973) + 30,000 (1974)
PRG/DRV: 39,000 (1973) + 61,000 (1974)
Civilians: 15,000
[TOTAL: 171,500 killed in the "Cease-Fire War".]
[My guess is 2.8M for the entire Vietnam conflict, pluse .6M for Cambodia, plus .1M in Laos
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 21:15:34 [Permalink]
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You just cannot compare Iraq to Vietnam. There are no similarities except we sent US troops there. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/16/2004 21:16:06 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 21:44:17 [Permalink]
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There are plenty of similarities.
quote:
Are you talking about the Cambodian killing fields? Because they wouldn't have happened had we not bombed Cambodia.
Are you counting how many Vietnamese would have died had we stayed?
I am not assessing here what will happen when we leave Iraq, but be careful with those fast and loose facts you attribute to US pullout of Vietnam.
Post US pullout in Veitnam:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm
quote:
Vietnamese democide: 1,040,000 (1975-87)
That's what I'm talking about. No US to fight the North, they roll into the south unopposed and kill whomever they please, and the end result is a massive deathtoll. Half that number above is attributed directly to the North's actions, the other half a secondary result (mostly drowning boat-people trying to get out).
quote:
Vietnam, post-war Communist regime (1975 et seq.): 430 000
And there is a VERY similiar situation building in Iraq. We leave abruptly, and we'll have a huge death-toll as a result. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 00:17:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Several different groups who hate one another, and a few other countries (Iran, Turkey) who are itching to murder some Iraqis.
I doubt Turkey would at this point start an open war against the Kurds as this would seriously hamper their chances of joining the EU. |
Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this piece of advice is pricesless', she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes' said Tiffany.
'Good now...If you trust in yourself.."
'Yes..?'
'..and believe in your dreams...'
'yes?'
'...and follow your star..' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'You'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.' |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2004 : 04:01:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
There are plenty of similarities.
quote:
Are you talking about the Cambodian killing fields? Because they wouldn't have happened had we not bombed Cambodia.
Are you counting how many Vietnamese would have died had we stayed?
I am not assessing here what will happen when we leave Iraq, but be careful with those fast and loose facts you attribute to US pullout of Vietnam.
Post US pullout in Veitnam:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm
quote:
Vietnamese democide: 1,040,000 (1975-87)
That's what I'm talking about. No US to fight the North, they roll into the south unopposed and kill whomever they please, and the end result is a massive death toll. Half that number above is attributed directly to the North's actions, the other half a secondary result (mostly drowning boat-people trying to get out).
quote:
Vietnam, post-war Communist regime (1975 et seq.): 430 000
And there is a VERY similiar situation building in Iraq. We leave abruptly, and we'll have a huge death-toll as a result.
The 1 million figure is the highest of several and your first quote, ".... After we left, millions were slaughtered." is a bit higher.
I'm not saying no large scale killing took place. The Khmer Rouge had to be one of the worst groups in the history of the modern world. Vietnam was in a civil war when we got there and still in one when we left. But there just is no similarity to Iraq.
And, in Vietnam, how many people would have died had we stayed longer? More? Less? The same?
BTW, I'm not arguing we should just leave Iraq or that civil war wouldn't break out there. I think we may be stuck in Iraq because if we leave, not only will there be a massive civil war, but the resulting country may be another place for al Qaeda to set up camps and we'd have to go in again anyway. |
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