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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 10/23/2004 : 23:00:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
What it seems you are saying is we could have killed more people to prevent the Viet Cong from killing more people. Sounds like a wash.
What I'm saying is, that when you go to war.... your intent is to kill somebody. I do not weigh the lives of people we have chosen to go to war with evenly with our own troops. When we use our military, we should use it in a way that minimizes the loss of life of our troops. The more of the enemy you kill first, the fewer of our troops die.
Which is why we should be far more cautious about starting wars. Which is why we should be much more concerned about the reasons we go to war than, apparently, the people of this great nation are. Which is why we should never accept the rhetoric of ANY politician who is trying to make a case for war or invasion without some serious fact checking. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 19:07:47 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi said:
Let me explain, I'm fairly certain that if we left tomorrow, the result would be more chaos than is already there, culminating in a two or three way civil war. Probably Iran would get involved on the She-ite side and Syria on the Suni side and Turkey just because they're itching to murder some Kurds. Who knows if Jordan would get dragged in or not and I'm sure the Kuwaiti's wouldn't feel particularly secure. And you can bet your ass there'd be Jihadi training camps all over the freakin' country churning out fighters who want nothing more on the face of the Earth than to blow up something American.
Dear Chaloobi,
I think you are on to something. If all these countries become involved in a fight over Iraq if we pull out, then at least their attention is not on the United States for the period of time. Because we really went in their to secure the oil in the middle east and set up a staging point for our military, the idea of pulling out is moot.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 20:10:00 [Permalink]
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Hi Doomar. Great to see you back.
What the Germans learned in France in WW-II, and we seem to have failed to learn in 'Nam, is that a determined and well armed resistance force is very difficult to defeat. Especally if that force has the sympathy, perhaps silent but sympathy never the less, of virtually all surrounding countries. Not to mention a shared religion among those countries. And they all well remember the Crusades, a black period in their histories.
I think that as long as the police forces and 'army' we're training are regarded as collaborters, the bombs will not cease. I think that as long there is an American boot is on the ground in Iraq, somebody will be setting up to whack it's owner.
Solution? I don't have one. But, apparently, neither do the wise men running this clusterfuck.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 20:56:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Hi Doomar. Great to see you back.
Ditto! Long time no see... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 15:45:44 [Permalink]
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Filthy and Dr. Mabuse,
Thanks and hi to both of you!
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 17:33:56 [Permalink]
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| You all sound like a bunch of ping pong players bouncing the same ball back at eachother. I would attempt trying to explain logical reasons for this war, but I'm quite sure that it wouldn't make sense to many of you. You are so convinced and pleased with your own 'philosophical' explanations, you are now your own sounding board. I'm only glad that on Nov 2nd, the majority of Americans were not so easily fooled. Cheers! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 17:44:44 [Permalink]
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| You are right. You might attempt logical reasons, but you wouldn't be able to. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 17:45:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
You all sound like a bunch of ping pong players bouncing the same ball back at eachother. I would attempt trying to explain logical reasons for this war, but I'm quite sure that it wouldn't make sense to many of you. You are so convinced and pleased with your own 'philosophical' explanations, you are now your own sounding board. I'm only glad that on Nov 2nd, the majority of Americans were not so easily fooled. Cheers!
And what did you intend to prove with that? I think the majority of Germans were for war in 1940 but by the time all of their cities were in ruin in 1945 they had probably changed their minds. But who the fuck gives a shit? They were wrong about invading Poland weren't they? Saddam was wrong about taking Kuwait right? You sound convinced of something....could it be your own philosophical explanations? Hell, if I was fighting an unjust war I probably would feel the same way.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 18:01:35 [Permalink]
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| You sound angry, good. Your comparison of WW2 Germans to present day Americans again shows why your party lost, and why you still don't get it. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 18:23:44 [Permalink]
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joedesmarais, don't get me wrong. I love people with different opinions, they create conversation (hopefully intellectual conversation). However, what I absolutely hate is people who go around on internet forums and say, "You are wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why." If you wish to argue your position, by all means, do so. If you don't, don't come here. This is a little section of the internet where we force you to back up your assertions. Your assertions are:
quote:
You all sound like a bunch of ping pong players bouncing the same ball back at each other. I would attempt trying to explain logical reasons for this war, but I'm quite sure that it wouldn't make sense to many of you. You are so convinced and pleased with your own 'philosophical' explanations, you are now your own sounding board. I'm only glad that on Nov 2nd, the majority of Americans were not so easily fooled. Cheers!
Which can be broken down into:
1.) The war was justified
2.) We are convinced by faulty logic and will refuse to listen to anyone who differs.
Please back these up.
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 18:37:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
You sound angry, good. Your comparison of WW2 Germans to present day Americans again shows why your party lost, and why you still don't get it.
You sound like a half -wit the family probably doesn't even miss.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 18:37:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais
You sound angry, good. Your comparison of WW2 Germans to present day Americans again shows why your party lost, and why you still don't get it.
Uh-huh. Now then, why exactly are we in Iraq?
Weapons of mass destruction? Seemed like a good idea at the time, except all that illegle ordinace seems to have been long destroyed -- as the UN inspectors were discovering and as our own inspectors soon found out.
Saddam was in collusion with Osama on 9-11? Sounds good except that Osama hated Saddam almost as much as he hates us, because Iraq had a secular government. Any Al Quada there were way underground lest they die nastly. Nope, won't wash.
To rid the world of a tinpot dictator? Ok perhaps, but not good enough. Saddam was contained and no threat to anyone beyond his borders. And why that tinpot dictator instead of a myriad of others? Oh right. The others have no natural resources to exploit.
But do enlighten us.
As for it being my party, no. I'm an Independent who will go after a corrupt Democrat just as fast as I will the scumbags who are currently wrecking the country from the military to the ecomomy. Faster even, because I hold them to a higher standard.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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joedesmarais
New Member
Iraq
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 19:08:20 [Permalink]
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Fair enough, here are some points to start off with.
As to the weapons of mass destruction, you are entirely correct, we did not find the stock piles we were told existed. Before you blame Bush however, you would first have to acknowledge that as the president, were he not to act on intelligence provided by not only American intelligence, but other countries as well (most notably the brits), he would have been responsible for any terrorist attack on our country. Was the intelligence correct? No, it was not, although as both the Kay report and the final ISG report showed, Sadaam was ACTIVELY seeking to start up his WMD programs. This alone should be justification for the war.
And have you read the 9-11 report? The 9-11 Commission Report supports everything that the intelligence community (all over the world - including Russia, Australia, England, Saudi Arabia, et al) has reported. That Iraq had WMDs programs, tried to buy "yellow cake" Uranium from Niger, bought missile components from Russia, Germany, and France throughout the 90s with monies that were supposed to be used with the "oil for food" program that the United States supported to circumvent the embargo.
Again, remember that you are asserting that the war was wrong because none were found. It is always easy to quarterback the past from the present. He should be judged on his actions and decisions made with available intelligence.
What about the argument that the U.S. should have trusted the UN to continue inspections? For those who argue this, I would point them to the corruption being exposed in the UN Oil for Food program, which is only now being unravelled.
As to the ouster of Sadaam, have all of you forgotten how evil and murderous this man, this regime, was? I have seen numerous articles on the thousands murdered in Iraq (civilian and military), but these same people convienently forget about the HUNDREDS of thousands murdered by Sadaam, and counting......
As someone who is over in Iraq, did you know that there are still graves that have not completely dug up and investigated? There is much more to come on this particular topic, I'm sure.
As to any comparisons of this war and Iraq, I read the word 'quagmire' somewhere, this war, militarily speaking, is successful. Are there continuing problems with insurgents and terrorists? Yes. But compare military and civilian casualty rates to the Vietnam, or WW2, or Korea, or any other major operation.
As to the Sadaam-Al Quada connection, I would refer people again to the 9-11 report, p.66. While it does sya there were no 'operational' cooperation, there was indeed a relationship. Any relationship they had was enough to act upon, and don't forget that Sadaam had already supported terrorists willing to kill themselves against Israel.
There is more, but I'm tired and I'm sure that there will be plenty of responses demonizing, cussing and bomb throwing to come. Cheers!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 01:47:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by joedesmarais
Fair enough, here are some points to start off with.
As to the weapons of mass destruction, you are entirely correct, we did not find the stock piles we were told existed. Before you blame Bush however, you would first have to acknowledge that as the president, were he not to act on intelligence provided by not only American intelligence, but other countries as well (most notably the brits), he would have been responsible for any terrorist attack on our country.
Okay, so you're saying that Bush was responsible for 9/11 itself? Great. Impeach him.quote:
Was the intelligence correct? No, it was not, although as both the Kay report and the final ISG report showed, Sadaam was ACTIVELY seeking to start up his WMD programs. This alone should be justification for the war.
In the U.S., people are not arrested, tried and imprisoned for intent alone. But you're saying that it's okay to punish the citizenry of an entire soveriegn nation based upon the intent of its leader. I don't see how this inconsistency is at all "logical."quote:
And have you read the 9-11 report? The 9-11 Commission Report supports everything that the intelligence community (all over the world - including Russia, Australia, England, Saudi Arabia, et al) has reported. That Iraq had WMDs programs, tried to buy "yellow cake" Uranium from Niger, bought missile components from Russia, Germany, and France throughout the 90s with monies that were supposed to be used with the "oil for food" program that the United States supported to circumvent the embargo.
So ending "oil for food" would have been a much more peaceful option than war, no?quote:
Again, remember that you are asserting that the war was wrong because none were found. It is always easy to quarterback the past from the present. He should be judged on his actions and decisions made with available intelligence.
Even if the intelligence is wrong? I remind you of what you said earlier: "Was the intelligence correct? No, it was not..." So you're saying that once a decision has been made, we should ignore the facts as they come to light. I understand that Bush also believes that "staying the course" is a wise thing to do, even if one learns that one is wrong, but that doesn't make the idea correct.quote:
What about the argument that the U.S. should have trusted the UN to continue inspections? For those who argue this, I would point them to the corruption being exposed in the UN Oil for Food program, which is only now being unravelled.
According to you, we had intelligence before the war that the program was being abused. It should have been terminated, and war held out as "a last resort."quote:
As to the ouster of Sadaam, have all of you forgotten how evil and murderous this man, this regime, was? I have seen numerous articles on the thousands murdered in Iraq (civilian and military), but these same people convienently forget about the HUNDREDS of thousands murdered by Sadaam, and counting......
As someone who is over in Iraq, did you know that there are still graves that have not completely dug up and investigated? There is much more to come on this particular topic, I'm sure.
All emotional arguments, and not logical. The war was not predicated upon the removal of an evil man, or revenge for what he'd done to his own people. The fact that he was evil should not be used, therefore, as a sort of retrospective justification. For example:
Bully: "Gimme your lunch money or I'll punch you."
Victim: "Okay, here's my walle..."
Ker-Poooow!
Witness: "Why did you punch him?"
Bully: "Well, I've seen him kick a puppy."quote:
As to any comparisons of this war and Iraq, I read the word 'quagmire' somewhere, this war, militarily speaking, is successful. Are there continuing problems with insurgents and terrorists? Yes. But compare military and civilian casualty rates to the Vietnam, or WW2, or Korea, or any other major operation.
So, just because it's a less-bloody war after 18 months means it'll continue to be a less-bloody war?quote:
As to the Sadaam-Al Quada connection, I would refer people again to the 9-11 report, p.66. While it does sya there were no 'operational' cooperation, there was indeed a relationship. Any relationship they had was enough to act upon, and don't forget that Sadaam had already supported terrorists willing to kill themselves against Israel.
The war was not predicated upon Saddam's support of terrorists against Israel. And if memory serves, it was not predicated upon Saddam supporting Al Quada, either. The war was predicated upon a direct threat Saddam posed to the United States, not through an intermediary terrorist group.quote:
There is more, but I'm tired and I'm sure that there will be plenty of responses demonizing, cussing and bomb throwing to come.
Nice load of prejudice you've got there. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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