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eklein
New Member
Canada
4 Posts |
 Posted - 11/29/2004 : 21:44:41 [Permalink]
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beskeptical...i'm having a field day here with your charges...I love providing references...it seems you don't like to do lit. searches yourself!
Spinal manipulation results in immediate H-reflex changes in patients with unilateral disc herniation.
Eur Spine J. 1997;6(6):398-401.
Areas of capsaicin-induced secondary hyperalgesia and allodynia are reduced by a single chiropractic adjustment: a preliminary study.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2004 Jul-Aug;27(6):381-7.
Somatovisceral response following osteopathic HVLAT: a pilot study on the effect of unilateral lumbosacral high-velocity low-amplitude thrust technique on the cutaneous blood flow in the lower limb.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2003 May;26(4):220-5.
There are also papers involving the post-adjustment effects on CD4, nitrous oxide, and the sensitivity of the golgi tendon organs. One can noticable see on needle EMG, or surface EMG the spikes (increased myo-electric potential) post-SMT, and a subsequent relaxation. The journal EMG is a good source....
Erik
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 03:28:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by eklein
beskeptical...i'm having a field day here with your charges...I love providing references...it seems you don't like to do lit. searches yourself!
.....
Erik
You really shouldn't make charges about people's likes and dislikes unless you know them better. I spend sufficient time researching my practice specialty, infectious disease, and have spent my adult life investigating the world around me in detail. I happen to have a life besides here and the last three months of the year are filled with no time for the BBs.
I only see a list of studies in your post. That doesn't mean the results are impressive, nor that the studies were well done.
Quackwatch is not my source of information on chiropractors. I have been in the medical field for (eek) almost 30 years. I have not seen convincing evidence that chiropractors do anything. Show me the study that provides evidence one chiropractor can tell if another has 'adjusted' or not 'adjusted' a patient's spine in the previous hour or day. Show me the study that shows how a spine differs before and after an adjustment.
The studies I have looked at, and there have been many, do not have results I would take to the bank. I will take a closer look at the ones you have listed that have objective outcome measurements but I haven't had time to look closer at Dave's post yet.
I just wanted to pop in and say I haven't left this topic yet. But it may be after X-mas the way my schedule is right now. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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geni
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 20:24:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by eklein
beskeptical...i'm having a field day here with your charges...I love providing references...it seems you don't like to do lit. searches yourself!
Spinal manipulation results in immediate H-reflex changes in patients with unilateral disc herniation.
Eur Spine J. 1997;6(6):398-401.
From the study
quote:
However, this trend did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.3877). Eight patients displayed no H-reflex abnormalities before or after manipulation. Their respective HR-A and HR-L values did not change significantly following manipulation.
quote:
Areas of capsaicin-induced secondary hyperalgesia and allodynia are reduced by a single chiropractic adjustment: a preliminary study.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2004 Jul-Aug;27(6):381-7.
A preliminary study? How about waiting for the full study?
quote:
Somatovisceral response following osteopathic HVLAT: a pilot study on the effect of unilateral lumbosacral high-velocity low-amplitude thrust technique on the cutaneous blood flow in the lower limb.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2003 May;26(4):220-5.
Rather a small study with rather borderline significance levels. |
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mgbworks
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 04:33:29 [Permalink]
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Getting up and leaving in the middle of torrential bullshit is one of my favorite hobbies. I usually like to stand up noisily, push my chair back, take a long time to put my coat on while I block as many people from seeing as I possibly can. Then I usually mumble something vulgar while I stomp out. I realize you were at work and could not afford such indulgence, but, as George Carlin often says, "It's things like this that kept me from climbing the corporate ladder."
By the way, all of my friends in the medical profession think chiropractors are quacks and their claims of "alignment" and "adjustments" have no basis in scientific fact. Thanks for the post, and to everyone for their pithy replies. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 23:02:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by geni
quote:
Originally posted by eklein
Spinal manipulation results in immediate H-reflex changes in patients with unilateral disc herniation.
Eur Spine J. 1997;6(6):398-401.
From the study
quote:
However, this trend did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.3877). Eight patients displayed no H-reflex abnormalities before or after manipulation. Their respective HR-A and HR-L values did not change significantly following manipulation.
quote:
Areas of capsaicin-induced secondary hyperalgesia and allodynia are reduced by a single chiropractic adjustment: a preliminary study.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2004 Jul-Aug;27(6):381-7.
A preliminary study? How about waiting for the full study?
quote:
Somatovisceral response following osteopathic HVLAT: a pilot study on the effect of unilateral lumbosacral high-velocity low-amplitude thrust technique on the cutaneous blood flow in the lower limb.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2003 May;26(4):220-5.
Rather a small study with rather borderline significance levels.
Thankyou geni. This is what I have found as well. Again, I'm only making a quick post here.
Ricky, you have taken my post of a general nature and picked at it as if it were a detailed account of all the evaluation of chiropractors I have ever done. I don't jump to very many conclusions. I am a skeptic of both general and alternative medicine. And, I also do not reject anything that patients claim works without a thorough investigation of the research available.
Quackwatch cites a number of studies which I read either the study or the abstract. There was no evidence. I have read many other studies over the years. No evidence. Not merely not enough for my satisfaction, not enough for anyone to claim the research supported improvement beyond placebo.
Eklein listed a bunch of studies. That doesn't mean the studies support chiropractic science. The couple geni commented on are good examples.
Dave has made some points I have not yet addressed about changes in the chiropractic field. He also did not agree with my conclusions on placebo vs chiropractic manipulation since medication use was less. I do not believe a good case has been made that the medications do more than placebo either, but this requires a much broader approach to evaluate the research. And, I haven't had time to get this involved in the subject. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2004 : 23:39:36 [Permalink]
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Beskeptigal wrote:quote:
Dave has made some points I have not yet addressed about changes in the chiropractic field.
I'm patient.  quote:
He also did not agree with my conclusions on placebo vs chiropractic manipulation since medication use was less. I do not believe a good case has been made that the medications do more than placebo either, but this requires a much broader approach to evaluate the research. And, I haven't had time to get this involved in the subject.
Just for clarification, my objections in the preceding matters are based upon the apparent lack of a demonstrated placebo. A study showing (for example) that chiropractic works no better than actually doing nothing for low back pain would go a long way towards convincing me that you're correct. Better still, a comparison of any of the already-mentioned interventions with a strict, doctor-directed regimen of elbow massage (which certainly should be ineffectual for the treatment of back pain). I would accept elbow massage as a valid placebo treatment.
Until such evidence is presented, equating chiropractic, medication, surgery, physical therapy and home exercises all with a placebo is unwarranted. After all, they may all work equally well for different reasons, but still work better than a truly non-effective treatment.
I hope this helps makes my objections to what you've been saying more clear. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JewelBlueIbanez
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 01/06/2005 : 21:00:16 [Permalink]
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| I was in a car accident not too long ago. I was rear-ended by a car and after that I had severe headaches, neck pain and back pain. First I went to the "Medical Doctor" and I was told that I have "a minor accident-related injury" and I was told to take two Advils every four hours until the pain went away. That sounds healthy. Who needs a liver anyways? As the days went on the pain got worse so I decided to go visit the Chiropractor. Turns out I have whiplash. He adjusted my spine and my headache went away as did most of my back and neck pain. That was only one treatment. Just think of how I'll feel after the second. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2005 : 22:13:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JewelBlueIbanez
I was in a car accident not too long ago. I was rear-ended by a car and after that I had severe headaches, neck pain and back pain. First I went to the "Medical Doctor" and I was told that I have "a minor accident-related injury" and I was told to take two Advils every four hours until the pain went away. That sounds healthy. Who needs a liver anyways? As the days went on the pain got worse so I decided to go visit the Chiropractor. Turns out I have whiplash. He adjusted my spine and my headache went away as did most of my back and neck pain. That was only one treatment. Just think of how I'll feel after the second.
While seemingly convicing at first, there are a few problems here.
The first is the placebo effect. Now from the tone in your post, I take it you are not a big fan of "Medical Doctors." Right? If this is correct and you had doubted the fact that the advil would help, the placebo effect is lost for the advil. However, when going to the Chiropractor, if you weren't sure, then the placebo effect could take place.
The second is the natural remission of the problem. That is, head aches normally go away after time, and so does back pain (in some cases, such as trauma which is no longer in effect, such as a car crash). Can you know that you would have gotten better without seeing the Chiropractor at all? No, you can't.
The only way to get passed these problems are properly conducted studies against placebos. These studies have shown that Chiropractic treatment to be barely effective (as effective as normal streching) and dangerous at times.
What did you mean by, "Who needs a liver anyways"? Advil doesn't say any warnings about the liver on the bottle. I can only find it being a problem when you have Cirrhosis on the internet. Can you give me a reference to where you are getting this information? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2005 : 00:54:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JewelBlueIbanez
I was in a car accident not too long ago. I was rear-ended by a car and after that I had severe headaches, neck pain and back pain. First I went to the "Medical Doctor" and I was told that I have "a minor accident-related injury" and I was told to take two Advils every four hours until the pain went away. That sounds healthy. Who needs a liver anyways? As the days went on the pain got worse so I decided to go visit the Chiropractor. Turns out I have whiplash. He adjusted my spine and my headache went away as did most of my back and neck pain. That was only one treatment. Just think of how I'll feel after the second.
Dammit! My bulshitmeter just blew!
Looks like someone knows jack shit about whiplash injuries.
If you are telling the truth, JewelBlueIbanez, you better stay away from this "Chiropractor". With such a limited knowledge he might harm you next time.
If you truly received a whiplash injury, lets hope you didn't, you might need specialist help. Make at least sure that you get a physician that really listen to and examines you.
There are to many incompetent physicians out there, which are happy to send you away with some painkillers. Find one of the many competent ones.
A chiropractor that claim that you have a whiplash and then starts adjusting your spine belongs behind bars.
And, yes I have some experience with whiplash injuries and the damage that a chiropractor can inflict up on a whiplash victim. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2005 : 04:22:07 [Permalink]
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As someone who has some real, spinal infuries (two fusions thus far), I can tell you straight out that if you get one, you will know it beyond doubt. I rather suspect that the Advil worked just fine, albeit a little slow, as happens sometimes.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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