|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 10/29/2004 : 11:42:48 [Permalink]
|
| Make sure you have the information on the validity of Carbon dating, specifically the point that RCD is only valid till about 50,000 years and then we use a combination of other dating methods for things older than that. Anuone have the data for him? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
 |
|
|
Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 14:38:41 [Permalink]
|
It is finished. I ramble on quite a bit, but I was under time constraints. Hope everyone enjoys.
http://skeptictimes.golivewire.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7061#7061
-------------
I will be responding to the arguments in a different order than they were originally given. The third argument given by Jimi is the most important, and also the most confusing since it refutes his other arguments.
quote:
Faulty Assumption – Uniformitarianism
Uniformitarianism states that (layman terms ) “the way things happen now, is they way they've always happened.” This is the very foundation of gradualistic evolution. This is where the old ages of the earth come from. Every argument that the evolutionist uses to try and prove an old earth is based on this very faulty assumption.
Actually, uniformitarianism (Uform hereafter) is the foundation for all of the sciences, including physics, chemistry, geology, quantum mechanics, astronomy, etc. Uform states that the mechanisms and physical laws that we observe today were the same in the past. This includes, among other things, gravity, radioactive decay, speed of light in a vacuum, laws of chemistry, etc. If these things were not constant then why would we even teach science, since something they learn today is totally different the next day. Most importantly, these are physical properties that have been shown to be constant in the past through observation. This is done by studying distant objects. One such observation is the supernova 1987A pictured below:
The supernova, when it exploded, ejected material outward which formed an outer ring of gas. After the explosion, light emitted by the supernova in the middle bounced off of that ring of ejected gases. The light bouncing off of the ring arrived to earth a year after the light from the supernova. Using the angle between the supernova in the middle and the gas ring scientists were able to measure the distance to the supernova using trigonometry, a distance of 170,000 light years away (a light year is the distance it takes light to travel in a vacuum in one year). This means, if the speed of light in a vacuum is constant, that this event occured 170,000 years ago.
When all of the math is done, scientists were able to measure the speed of light using the amount of time it took the light from the supernova to reach the ring. The speed of light turned out to be the same as it is on earth. Therefore, we know that the speed of light 170,000 years ago was the same as it is today.
Also, when a supernova explodes new elements are created. In supernova 1987A, radioactive elements, cobalt-56 and cobalt-57, were produced. Scientists were able to measure the half-lives of these elements by the emissions given off, in the very same manner that radioactive decay is measured in terrestrial samples. Guess what, they are the same half lives that we observe on earth today for those same elements. So, just like the speed of light, radioactive decay rates were the same 170,000 years ago. (source: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/additional_topics/supernova.html)
Many creationists have claimed that the speed of light in a vacuum is variable, and that the starlight we see today has either sped up, slowed as it approaches towards earth, or a combination of the above. However, this ad hoc theory is refuted by millisecond pulsars. These are small, dense suns that spin at an incredible speed, hundreds of times per second in the case of millisecond pulsars. If these pulsars were spinning any faster than they are now they would fling material out into space. That is, the centrifugal force from the spinning would be greater than the f |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 15:04:16 [Permalink]
|
Extremely well done. This was more fun to read than the first. I might have put your statement about why attacking Jimi's arguments is not the same as attacking Jimi at the beginning, since whenever creationists are at a loss for words they often claim mental anguish over having been so personally offended.
Still, they better read the whole thing and respond appropriately. If Jimi dismisses your arguments as casually as he made his, I'd be pissed.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/29/2004 15:06:24 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 15:40:33 [Permalink]
|
Again, excellent!
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
mountain_hare
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 17:07:38 [Permalink]
|
| Great post, Peptide! I also enjoyed it far more than your previous one. It's going to be funny watching Jimi floundering about, trying to form a comprehensible argument. |
"This may sound really off the wall, but listen to me. You've got to believe me. I've not gone crazy, and I'm not fooling around. At first I thought I was losing my mind. But now I know I'm not. It's not me. The scientific community. It's being invaded by Creationism. Someone's ignorant delusions come to life. Little by little, the
invasion is spreading. Trying to swallow up everything in ignorance."
The words of Dr. Harry to the disbelieving scientific community, who were amazed that such idiotic ideals as "Creationism" would ever be taken seriously.
|
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 17:11:38 [Permalink]
|
Awesome! I love the thing about the supernova (and the lovely image).
But...
quote:
It is simpler to say that invisible leprechauns hold up airplanes than to describe aerodynamic lift.
THEY DO. It's soooooo obviously the leprechauns, you fiends  . |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 17:45:49 [Permalink]
|
| Great post |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 19:40:57 [Permalink]
|
Congrats, Peptide. It's not exactly the "slam-dunk" I was hoping for, but it was extremely good, anyway. My main criticism would be that I don't think you pointed out the problems with jimi's arguments enough.
I bet it feels good to have completed that task, no matter what jimi has to say in a week. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 20:38:04 [Permalink]
|
| Indeed, well done Peptide! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 21:04:32 [Permalink]
|
Even I, a decided non scientifically-trained ignoramus, was able to understand both your evidence and your logic.
Thank you, Peptide. And well done.  |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
|
|
|
Peptide
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 09:13:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
Even I, a decided non scientifically-trained ignoramus, was able to understand both your evidence and your logic.
Thank you, Peptide. And well done.
That is the best compliment I can recieve. I always strive to combine accurate descriptions with layman language which is hard to do. Being in the sciences I often overlook those without scientific training. It is good to hear that a layman was able to follow my post.
And to the rest, thanks for the encouragement and compliments. Jimi will not be able to respond to my rebuttal, but his response to my original post should be up by Friday. I am wondering what other's think of the post over at Skeptic Times? |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 09:21:44 [Permalink]
|
So, is it me or did tkster change the rules yesterday to allow unlimited time for the rebuttals, after peptide posted his?
quote:
tkster:
Time Frame:
1rst Evolutionist Introduction - 1 Week From Now the Introduction must be posted. No re-editing it after the date and we will check to make sure.
1rst Creationist Introduction - 1 Week after the Evolutionist post and no re-editing after the date it is due and we will check to make sure.
Neither Introduction are for rebuttals so any "rebuttal" will be removed. You are to present your argument in favor of your theory; rebuttals will occur next with no time restriction.
take care,
tk
_________________
http://www.skeptictimes.com/
"The trouble with the world is the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." ~Bertrand Russell
"From here to there, from there to here, funny things are everywhere." ~Dr. Seuss
Last edited by tkster on Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:08 am; edited 7 times in total
quote:
tkster:
Well there was NO time limit for the rebuttals, so I am somewhat surprised Peptide posted so quickly. Nonetheless, it is now Jimi's turn. This topic is locked as Jimi can add to it and remove this post when done.
Tk
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 12:47:08 [Permalink]
|
| Nice! That was great reading Peptide. Thanks! |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 14:00:55 [Permalink]
|
| Why do I have an impression he'll never post that rebuttal? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
