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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 11/16/2004 : 17:59:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Storm:
Just reading your claims list. How interesting that next to every claim except ghost there is some comment. A typo?
No. It's a joke…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 18:06:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
And I even found proof for something called the shit monster with 2,460 hits, a creature I thought I had made up on the spot. Here is a lovely illustration.
Goddamnit that's funny!! That you'd think up a thing called a "shit monster" is hilarious, but that you'd get over 2000 hits for it on Google cracks me up!! |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 18:22:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Very interesting but let us not ignore some very credible evidence. The point is that 5,300,00 websites are not wrong.
No, Storm, the point is that having a large numbe of websites mentioning your topic doesn't make it any more (or less) valid. Didn't you read his list? There are 7 million hits for aliens, and over 8 million for dragons. Dragons, man! Should we all go on the hunt for dragons because 8,070,000 websites "are not wrong"? Shit-- I just got over 4 million hits Googling wrestling+is+real. Shows you how empty a boast like that is.
As for your other ideas, I had a look at one of the websites you linked. It was, uh, interesting, but I was hoping for something more than some turn-of-the century account from an English ghost-hunter guy. I also looked up The Society for Psychical Research and found their site. Nothing there "proved" anything, and their questionaire for participating in an experiment almost insures that they'll get a paranormal believer to test-- hardly an unbiased sample.
Storm, I want to believe. And it seems to me that if you want me to believe, you'd actually do some work and find some good evidence-- any idiot can Google some terms; I want real proof. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 11/16/2004 18:24:31 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 18:22:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Storm:
I can agree to the fact that human epistemologies are created equal. They all offer knowledge.
So, you are saying that anecdotal evidence can favorably compete with evidence that can be independently verified using the scientific method. And, some really good knowledge is up for election. If enough people believe it, it's true…
Well, whatever floats your boat… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 18:59:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Goddamnit that's funny!! That you'd think up a thing called a "shit monster" is hilarious, but that you'd get over 2000 hits for it on Google cracks me up!!
Only goes to show that all the really good ideas have already been taken.  |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 19:45:06 [Permalink]
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Storm wrote:quote:
What makes you think I have failed because I stand besides my own convictions.
Actually, yes. If you stand by your own convictions when they are incorrect, you are closed-minded. Your preaching about others being closed-minded is simple hypocrisy.quote:
I reade Terence Hines And Erich Goode daily. I would not call that failure.
"Apes do read philosophy, Otto. They just don't understand it." - Wanda.quote:
Everything I know about Science does not just come from Paranormal books although they have been a wonderful enlightenment.
You have yet to demonstrate that you've got a firm grasp of science at all. In fact, this post makes me more convinced that you do not.quote:
I have urned my degree in business management mathematical scientific methodology. I urned my degree in Sociology Just about urned a degree in Divinity.
And Einstein thought that God doesn't play dice with the universe. The degrees you've earned simply don't matter if you are incorrect.quote:
I just do not come from reading Paranormal books.
Still doesn't look that way.quote:
I can agree to the fact that human epistemologies are created equal. They all offer knowledge.
Ah. So Dave's epistemology (that what I think is true, is true) offers an equal amount of knowledge about the real world as the philosophy of science? As does religious revelation? Wow, that's great! Thanks for the boost.quote:
As for the evidence of ghosts just type in the word ghost on the yahoo search engine. 5,300,00. That is no typo Valiant Dancer!!! There is your evidence. Surely they all cannot be fakes. I know for sure there is evidence in those sights.
Just another argument from popularity. A wise man once said, "if a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
Beyond that, the top two hits for "ghost" on Google are to Norton Ghost, which has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Neither do #4, #5, #6, #9 and #10. So if the first page of hits is any indication, only 30% of those 5.3 million hits have to do with the paranormal and/or supernatural, or 1.59 million hits.
Oh, and if one types in XXX into Google, one gets 187 million hits. So pornography is more than 100 times as popular as ghosts, and so apparently by your strange logic, more than 100 times as "correct" as ghosts. Good for porn. 187 million smut peddlers can't be wrong.quote:
As a person who definetly believes in scientific methodolgy it is quite easy to distinguish the fakes from the questionable to the real.
The problem is, scientific methodology isn't something anyone should have to "believe in." You've got things all twisted around.
And as far as the Mark Twain quote goes, you haven't shared any of your ambitions with us, as far as I can tell, which means nobody here has belittled them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 21:27:32 [Permalink]
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Storm, I want evidence. Evidence does not include, "This guy says its true." Evidence does not include google hits, as we have already shown, you can prove anything using google hits.
I don't want a website which has the supposed evidence. You present this claim, you must present the evidence. The burden of proof is on you. If you fail to show the evidence, then we are not close minded because we don't accept a claim that has no evidence, we are justified.
Give us the evidence and we will agree with you. It's as simple as that.
And on a side note:
I am not trying to poke fun at Storm's grammer, I just find this really ironic (not sure if anyone else has caught this):
quote:
As for the evidence of ghosts just type in the word ghost on the yahoo search engine. 5,300,00. That is no typo Valiant Dancer!!! There is your evidence. Surely they all cannot be fakes. I know for sure there is evidence in those sights.
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 11/16/2004 21:29:32 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 21:35:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I am not trying to poke fun at Storm's grammer, I just find this really ironic.
I found it ironic when he trumpeted his education by enumerating all the degrees he had "urned." I let it pass as I can only assume he isn't a native English speaker.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/16/2004 21:52:36 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 04:31:38 [Permalink]
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Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great."
-- Mark Twain
Was my grammar a typo? Sights? The shit monster thing was hilarious. But unfortenutely clouded by the possibilities. As far as the old English guy science must build a foundation on the old?. Have you done any investigations on ghosts?
War is Hell
Winston Churchill |
Storm |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 04:40:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Very interesting but let us not ignore some very credible evidence. The point is that 5,300,00 websites are not wrong. All you need to do is read between the lines. But other than the yahoo searches look at the other websites I suggested. It is interesting to me though how coincidental that the topic of ghosts were left out. Oh but then I guess we could have a whole conversation on skepticism and coincedence. I typed in "Skeptics" on the search engine only 976,000 came up. Not Even half of what "ghosts" constitute. Just some number comparison.
Argument from popularity and worth no more than an ancedote.
Why must "I read between the lines?" These people can't simply spit it out? That's what a scientific paper does. But unlike these 530,000 sites (no, I didn't browse through all of them -- what, am I a lunatic?), that paper will contain a great deal of emperical evidence that can be verified, and it will be strenously reviewed by some very knowledgable and hard-nosed people in that field of research. Scientists are competitive almost to the point of cut-throatism.
I think that a belief in ghosts and gods is one of the prices we pay for sapience. We constantly seek explainations. We have difficulty imagining an existance that lacks ourselves, so we have invented the myth(s) of an afterlife. We see a moving light in the sky and say that it could only be visitors from beyond our solar system; all without a single shred of evidence beyond a corpse and a mysterious moving light.
Some cultures did odd things with their dearly departed, like bury them under the floor of their dwelling. Others practiced ritual cannabilsm.
I have seen a moving light in the sky. I still don't know what it was, but until I get some positive verification, I will not believe that it was Kang and Kronos on their way to abduct Homer.
And at the time, I was smoking some pretty decent weed, so make of it what you will.
As a group, we will believe just about anything, even things that are obviously nonsense and have been proven thus. We will go to extremes in attempts to verify them -- witness the called-off-but-still-serious expedition up the north face of Mt. Ararat in search of the fabeled Ark. And look at the support it has. Further, if that Ark is not found, ever, it will not cause the least whisp of doubt in the minds of that support.
The clumsely faked photos by a small gaggle of school girls, of the Cottingsly(sp?) Fairies fooled Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle, who was certainly not stupid in spite of his beliefs in the metaphysical.
No, until these 530,000 sites can come up with something solid, and if they did, we wouldn't have to go on line to read about it -- the science publications would be all over it -- ghosts and related phenomena must remain as they are: stories to tell and hear, and to scare the delighted bejabbers out of small children on Halloween.
Edited to inquire; did you mean 5,300,000 sites rather than fifty three thousand? It seems a more likely number. Also needed to clean up some early-morning grammar.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/17/2004 04:52:07 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 07:42:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
What makes you think I have failed because I stand besides my own convictions. I reade Terence Hines And Erich Goode daily. I would not call that failure.
We asked for sources, you have not provided them. You have failed to support your assertation.
quote:
Everything I know about Science does not just come from Paranormal books although they have been a wonderful enlightenment. I have urned my degree in business management mathematical scientific methodology. I urned my degree in Sociology Just about urned a degree in Divinity. I just do not come from reading Paranormal books.
I can agree to the fact that human epistemologies are created equal. They all offer knowledge.
As for the evidence of ghosts just type in the word ghost on the yahoo search engine. 5,300,00. That is no typo Valiant Dancer!!! There is your evidence. Surely they all cannot be fakes.
Arguementum ad populum logical fallacy. The number of people who believe something has no bearing on the truth value of that something without other documented evidence which has been analyzed and verified.
quote:
I know for sure there is evidence in those sights. As a person who definetly believes in scientific methodolgy it is quite easy to distinguish the fakes from the questionable to the real.
credible societies:
The Ghost Club
The Society for Psychical Research
Phantasms of the Living Podomore, Gurney, Myers(read between the lines very much a product of spiritualism but none the less useful}
http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/wallace/S434.htm (check out this website)
http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/wallace/S430.htm
Check out these websites
The referenced sites quote 1891 articles concerning disagreements within the spiritualist movement on what causes apparitions. They do not reference scientific studies. You have not referenced any study by the aforementioned groups. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 07:51:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great."
-- Mark Twain
Was my grammar a typo? Sights? The shit monster thing was hilarious. But unfortenutely clouded by the possibilities. As far as the old English guy science must build a foundation on the old?. Have you done any investigations on ghosts?
War is Hell
Winston Churchill
The burden of proof is on the claimant. (that means you) Insisting that we spend time researching your assertation is absurd. It equates to an arguementum ad Ignorantum logical fallacy.
Please check out this website, it may help you.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 12:10:45 [Permalink]
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For a lark, I looked for The Ghost Club (established 1862) online and found an example of their "investigation" methods.
Here are the major problems with the investigation in question
1) Reliance on psychics to find entities
2) Reliance on a methodology which has no basis (Gauss readings = spirits and temperature fluctuations = spirits)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 11/17/2004 12:12:39 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 12:23:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great."
-- Mark Twain
Was my grammar a typo? Sights? The shit monster thing was hilarious. But unfortenutely clouded by the possibilities. As far as the old English guy science must build a foundation on the old?. Have you done any investigations on ghosts?
War is Hell
Winston Churchill
Storm, where is my evidence? You promised it in your opening post, but thus far have failed to deliever. Please, I want to accept ghosts, it would be awsome to live in a world where when I die, I didn't have to "turn into nothing." But I just need evidence first.
Sights is supposed to be sites, I just found it funny since it came right after you stating "That is not a typo." It was in no way a shot at you, I would laugh my ass off if I did the same.
As far as Old English goes, science is built off of language. You can not communicate without it. If you can't communicate, you can't have peer review or debates, so you can't have science. English definitions come from the Old English definitions which come from various languages. That is why they are important, to know what you mean when you say a word.
As far as whether or not I have done investigations of ghosts, I haven't. But why does this matter? I have not investigated witches or fairies or nessy or Bigfoot, should I have no opinion because I haven't personally investigated it?
Should we just trust the word of someone who has?
The answer to both those questions is a simple, "No." |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 11/17/2004 12:25:32 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 13:09:14 [Permalink]
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I've noticed a couple of odd, chronic mispellings as well as mistating 5,300,000 and getting the commas wrong in '5,300,00' in Storm's writing. The most notable one is 'urning' for 'earning.' For a moment, I thought it might be a clever play on words, as an urn is a jar used to store thngs, and it was used in the context of collecting diplomas in certain disciplines. An urn is also used to keep the ashes of the sadly defunct that were disposed of by the sensible means of cremation -- a much more savory thought than cannabilism or digging up the living room to stash them.
Kinda neat, when you think about it. I might steal it for myself. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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