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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 11/17/2004 : 20:14:31 [Permalink]
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Storm wrote:quote:
To be a real Scientist you must do the work.
Only someone who doesn't understand science would say such a thing. The central message of science is not "everyone for him/herself."
(Damn, two A Fish Called Wanda paraphrases in the same thread.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 20:27:46 [Permalink]
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I disagree!!! |
Storm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 01:27:47 [Permalink]
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So Storm.
After 21 posts you have provided nothing but unsupported assertions and insults. A modus operandi which will hardly be appreciated on a skeptic forum.
I think you better rethink your strategy to achieve whatever goal you have with your posts. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 03:28:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
To be a real Scientist you must do the work. even if it means going through 5,300,00 Yes ladies and gentlemen Five Million websites. 
Yes Ricky you must do the work to not would put you into the True Believers Category. If anyone is wondering where I got the word True Believer well it was from the most wonderful article called Fence Sitting right here on this website. 
I'm starting to think you've no evidence to show us. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 03:55:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Why should I do all the work? If you are interested you do it!! I did. You can believe what you want? But you won't get your answers overnight. If you do then well you fall into the One of the three categories- True Believer.
I am not asking anyone to believe me. I am sure not here to tell anyone that there is life after death. But the phenomenon we call ghosts exists. See all the Journals for Psychical research If you don't understand what I mean about my Spiritualism quote then do your homework. You expect me to do mine.
Storm, bottom line: You made the claim; the burden of proof is on you, not us; any work to be done is waiting for you to do it. As I stated before, no one is going to dig through five million pages of mostly crap (this is the internet, remember?) looking for the lost flea of Truth & Justice. You should have had that flea, groomed, shined, and ready to present before making your statements, rather than going through all the fuss and bother of hunting that elusive, little fucker down afterward.
Thus, you either failed to have your act together before coming here or failed to research this site to see what it's all about; probably both.
To paraphrase the late Carl Sagan: Extraordinary claims require extraodinary proofs. You have put forth an extraordinary claim backed by no proofs at all, but insisted that we look for it for you. Howsomever, I feel generous today; exactly which of these 5,300,000 sites would be the best to present your case? Give us the address(s), and we'll check it/them out.
quote:
And on that note, I would like to complain about how hard it is to clean up invisible dragon crap.
Ricky, have you tried invisible, giant dung beetles? They work well in my quetzacoatl coop.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 07:14:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
I am not insisting that anyone does any research. Surely research like this can't be done overnight with a few clicks on some links I suggested. Documented Evidence there is plenty you just choose to ignore it. Just because it is not done by so called scientists. Just because it cannot be controlled or replicated does not mean it does not exist. Let me make one thing clear if we are talking about ghosts as proof of life after death or eternal life I have no proof of that I never claimed I did. But if you look at the research and break free from the veil of Spiritualism you will see that ghosts are much more than you think.
Unfortunetly Valiant Dancer it is you who is closed minded. To use the word Lark makes me definetly not want to validate any of your beliefs or thoughts.
I see, so since I have done extensive reading and had personal experiences which lead me to believe that ghosts exist but I insist that there is no proof for them other than anectdotal evidence and the works of the Spiritualist movement, I must be closed minded. You have claimed that you have proof that ghosts exist. You have continually ignored repeated requests for a way to verify your assertations. Instead you rail against science and urge people to research the subject on their own to validate your assertations. Again, the rules of logic dictate that the burden of proof is on the claimant. You rely on groups using unfounded methodologies concerning spirit detection and sloppy investigative methods. There are a myriad of natural sources for electromagnetic energies which are detectable by gauss meters, to be scientifically valid, one must disprove the existance of those electromagnetic sources in close proximity to the reading. Temperature fluxuations in a room suffer from similar natural sources.
quote:
I have done serious research have you?
Yes, I have.
quote:
Or are you reading about the Paranormal only through Science books.
No, I have read texts on metaphysics and ghosts. I have had personal experiences with paranormal events but have turned a skeptical eye on it when I looked into verifying the assumptions made by the Spiritualist movement.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 07:18:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Dave, there are now 104 sub-classifications, two of them just breeded producing the 104th.
And on that note, I would like to complain about how hard it is to clean up invisible dragon crap.
I'll give you some of my invisible dragon dung beetles (Scarabaeidae Garylarsoni). That might help you. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 07:28:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Dave,
There are classifications to the phenomenon.
Postmortem Apparition
Crisis Apparition
Deathbed Apparition
Anniversary Apparition
Reciprocal Apparitions
Collective Apparitions
You do the rest
And here we go. You are listing sub-classifications, not actual classifications.
Hauntings are separated into three classifications.
1) Inteligent directed - ghost acts as if it is still alive and aware of it's changing surroundings, these lose cohesion over time as the haunting area goes through changes/renovations.
2) Replay hauntings - An event of great emotional trauma is replayed based on a set of criteria. It may be annually on the date of the original occurance. It might be daily. It might be based on a specific set of actions to trigger it. The idea is that the emotion of the event and the psychic underlayment has imprinted itself on an area. These typically occur on battlefields.
3) Elemental hauntings - These are very old hauntings which have degraded to the point of sheer emotion. Only the more violent one survive this long.
In all, there are very few hauntings that are over 300 years old. The majority of them breaking up within a century.
Now, this is all from my personal research into hauntings. I have exactly zero scientific proof to back any of this up. Which makes it a belief of mine, not a fact. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 09:48:22 [Permalink]
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Storm,
I'm thinking that it might be very difficult to use typical scientific, empirical type measurement to uncover the mysteries considered paranormal. At best it seems that scientists have to acknowledge that something out of the normal occurred, but they cannot figure out what. Since these "paranormal" occurrances happen many times randomly, it's pretty difficult to make them happen in scientific settings. Also, in a related area, "miraculous" type healings, the nature of "skepticism" of doubt is considered an unwelcome presence. Consider how Jesus put out all the crying people who couldn't imagine him raising a little dead girl back to life. He didn't want them around...so how does a scientist who is highly skeptical even venture into the rhelm of "faith" and/or "paranormal" happenings? By definition, the skeptical scientists just discount such happenings and are unable to study them empirically (they don't really care to find something that might counter there long held beliefs).
My point is, skeptics who are believers in only what you can see and touch are constantly debating those who believe in more, rather than actually looking at the possibilities. They hold to their religion of naturism science as the only method of explaining anything in the universe. So, trying to get them to even study "paranormal" things goes against their grain. Spiritual scientists, however, are much more open to the topic, but their brothers in the naturalism belief look down on them as deluded. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 11:01:58 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
By definition, the skeptical scientists just discount such happenings and are unable to study them empirically (they don't really care to find something that might counter there long held beliefs).
My point is, skeptics who are believers in only what you can see and touch are constantly debating those who believe in more, rather than actually looking at the possibilities. They hold to their religion of naturism science as the only method of explaining anything in the universe. So, trying to get them to even study "paranormal" things goes against their grain. Spiritual scientists, however, are much more open to the topic, but their brothers in the naturalism belief look down on them as deluded.
Well, I was wondering when the "old" Doomar would be showing up, and here he finally is, with the same falsehoods.
It is this type of closed-mindedness that I've been railing against for a long time. You've got a highly skewed opinion of what "scientists" and/or "naturalists" do and think, Doomar (and Storm, too). Rather than learn about the actual methodologies and goals of the people you're talking about, you dismiss skeptics as blinded by dogma. But the dogma appears to be yours.
I would really enjoy finding out that there's something "out there." It would validate for me those decades I spent searching. Because, until such a time as evidence comes in which makes those possibilities more than just possibilities, I consider that time to have been largely wasted, and that's depressing. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 11:09:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I would really enjoy finding out that there's something "out there." It would validate for me those decades I spent searching. Because, until such a time as evidence comes in which makes those possibilities more than just possibilities, I consider that time to have been largely wasted, and that's depressing.
Dave, seek and you will find. As Jonathan Winters said "If your boat hasn't come in, swim out to it". We can't expect others to do the swimming for our own boat (speaking to myself, also). Maybe you and me just swam out half-way and got tired. I'm resting on a reef while you swam back. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 11:22:56 [Permalink]
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Just had a new thought on this subject of "validation". Why are we obsessed with finding validation for our experience? Consider a mom and dad who have just had a new baby. So many say, "it's a miracle!" Well that miracle has been happening for thousands of years, yet, they still exclaim it as if it just happened to them...well it did just happen to them. It is vivid in their minds and hearts. The experience was more than just a baby popping out of the womb, a cold reality of mammal life...something else was occurring...enlightenment...a realization of how amazing something is and much more. If it was simply a physical act that resulted from another physical act, why would so many be so amazed at its occurance? Thousands have explored the scientific side of this phenomenom of procreation. They've been able to note how the sperm entered the egg, fertilization and so on up to birth itself. They seem to have it down pat. However, to the new couple who is experiencing it for the first time and even the second and third and fourth, it is an amazing event! A miracle! Wow. Science just can't comprehend that side of it. Why? Because it is not in their field to do so. Such things are not empiracally based or fact oriented. It is feeling, emotion, enlightenment of mind and spirit. Science can only point to chemical and electro pulses and such. It's kinda like analysing a Michal Angelo sculpture or painting with the callousness of science. How the art "affects" you is insignificant to the scientist, only the type of clay and stone and paint and the level of strokes and lenth of brush play into their empiracle account.
In other words, friends, science is way too low of level of understanding to comprehend the "magnificent". |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 11/18/2004 11:25:16 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2004 : 11:23:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I would really enjoy finding out that there's something "out there." It would validate for me those decades I spent searching. Because, until such a time as evidence comes in which makes those possibilities more than just possibilities, I consider that time to have been largely wasted, and that's depressing.
Dave, seek and you will find. As Jonathan Winters said "If your boat hasn't come in, swim out to it". We can't expect others to do the swimming for our own boat (speaking to myself, also). Maybe you and me just swam out half-way and got tired. I'm resting on a reef while you swam back.
But if the boat is a mirage and isn't actually on the water, no amount of swimming will get you to it. We have stated here the reasons that the investigations presented to us were questionable and scientifically invalid. Noone here is absolutely denying the existance of ghosts, what IS being said is that there exists no evidence to date which forms evidence for the phenomenon other than personal anectdotes. Those people who have never experienced such a paranormal event have not been convinced of the existance of those paranormal events. They are requesting the evidence that Storm alludes to by way of other than anectdotal accounts. He has linked to disagreements of sources of hauntings between Spiritualists and referenced investigative teams which use sloppy investigative measures and invalid assumptions concerning electromagnetic peaks and temperature anomalies within rooms.
While you're resting on that reef, care to verify that the boat is actually there using a methodology other than "but I can see it"? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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