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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 11/29/2004 : 08:40:47 [Permalink]
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You are right about the possibilities of being Faires? But through Critical thinking and scientific method investigators of ghosts have come to the conclusion that these particular phenomenon touch, smell, taste, etc, and apparition sightings are associated with what is termed "Ghost"
You don't believe in either right? |
Storm |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 09:02:13 [Permalink]
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I didn't have time to reply to your previous post in full. I will do that now:
quote:
Siberia,
They can be full apparitions, they can be just a floating head.
Why can the floating head not just be a dream or something created by hypnosis or an illusion?
quote:
Although as of right now science does not know if the soul survives death the phenomenon of seeing the dead and experiencing things associated with the dead are true and real.
Sound familiar anyone (Dave; Dude)? All evidence we have suggests that the soul does not survive death, and in fact, that there is no such thing as a soul. All evidence we have are absent of these. But you do make a true statement. People do think they see the dead. But what makes you think that means that they actually are? Children see goblins under their beds, does that mean they exist?
quote:
But ghosts don't always have to be dead. The ghosts of the living can also be seen. things like Bilocation, Doppelganger, Astral Projection. Do you understand?
That is a low-redefinition. Basically, what you have just said is that anything paranormal is a ghost. That is not the normal definition of the word ghost.
quote:
So what do you think are ghosts the souls of those dead or living? Are they an illusion created by the mind. In a Doppelganger or Astral projection we can say maybe they are? But in ghosts of the Dead?
We have offered possible suggestions and there are more that exist. But you have yet to offer any evidence which supports even the claim that people think they see ghosts, except for 2 pictures which are easily explained by natural causes.
Give us evidence and we will look into it. Otherwise, your claim is as empty as Verlch's skull.
Edit:
quote:
You are right about the possibilities of being Faires? But through Critical thinking and scientific method investigators of ghosts have come to the conclusion that these particular phenomenon touch, smell, taste, etc, and apparition sightings are associated with what is termed "Ghost"
You don't believe in either right?
You are again defining anything that can not be explained as a ghost. Which is once again, an argument from ignorance. Just because we don't know what it is, doesn't mean it is a ghost. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 11/29/2004 09:03:44 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 09:03:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
You are right about the possibilities of being Faires? But through Critical thinking and scientific method investigators of ghosts have come to the conclusion that these particular phenomenon touch, smell, taste, etc, and apparition sightings are associated with what is termed "Ghost"
You don't believe in either right?
Investigators of ghosts have failed repeatedly to support their methodology on a scientific basis. Again, they assume that decreased temperature and increased gauss activity are byproducts of ghosts, but have shown no study or even correlation with blind tests to validate that methodology. Their reliance on Spiritualist mediums to contact and detect spirits is the least scientific method of all.
There are oftentimes natural occurring phenomenon which clearly explain the sensations attributed to ghosts.
Things to explain temperature changes/cold spots: Anything from proximity to active HVAC vents to being in a root cellar.
Things to explain high gauss readings: proximity to active high voltage wires, active household wiring, fluxuations in the Earth's magnetic field, proximity to electrical storms, etc.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 09:28:53 [Permalink]
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Storm wrote:quote:
Someone had said I believe it was Dave that science is not about everyone for themselves. I believe that to a certain degree but I believe it starts out with that notion.
Science deals with what is repeatable and testable by anyone. People who claim to do science, but offer up nothing repeatable or testable by anyone but themselves are largely regarded as crackpots.quote:
We all want to believe that our existence goes on beyond now.
Yeah, but science only deals with what's real, not what people want. I want a billion dollars to suddenly appear in my bank account. It's not going to happen.quote:
I believe there are many proofs to the existence of the phenomenon Ghosts. One just has to read between the lines.
And you could demonstrate that. You could show us your methodology for reaching the conclusions you have. You choose not to, however, which leaves us with no way to check your work.
In a later post you wrote:quote:
But through Critical thinking and scientific method investigators of ghosts...
If you can support the idea that these investigators actually apply critical thought and/or scientific methodology to these phenomena, that'd go a long way towards making your case. Just saying that they do does not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 11:55:25 [Permalink]
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I never said that everything paranormal is a ghost. What evidence do you have that the soul does not exist after death? I have given you many different avenues to start on. You do the work and you let me know what you think. Do you think that ghosts are only the soul of the dead? Not everyone relies on mediums? you must loosen the chain of your Spiritualism beliefs. Not all ghosts are conscious souls of the dead that talk to mediums. Why would a medium be the least scientific way? You let the era of the Spiritualism cloud your mind. You become a true believer.
There is no doubt in cases and I have researched many that natural occurrences can be attributed to ghostly phenomenon. But there are more equal if not more that can not be explained. it is these cases and many more that still happen as we speak that must lead us to move on and take seriuos thought into the phenomenon called ghosts. Not all of websites, investigation groups, researchers, etc are fakes.
Even as a skeptic which I definetly am even though I think some of you do not believe that can not ignore some great evidence that has come out.
Now you will say well prove all that you just wrote to us and we can then maybe take your case seriously. I have given much proof. Now it is up to you to do the research. Better for you to do it than someone to do it for you. But maybe that is not the scientific way but it is the skeptical way. |
Storm |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 12:20:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have given much proof.
Where? In obviously biased websites? In two cheesy photographs I could have done myself?
And what IS the ball-and-chain of Spititualism you love to quote, but never explain? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 12:43:45 [Permalink]
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Siberia,
Have you read much on Spiritualism and it's influence on scientific research? If not you should do so? What cheesy photographs are you talking about? My website ones. Those are real photographs Why are your panties in such a bunch!! Relax. Read through my posts. There are books, websites, schools all that can help you decide. I am not here to convince anyone I merely here to guide you to open your mind. Take some time. Do some research. |
Storm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 12:45:46 [Permalink]
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Storm wrote:quote:
What evidence do you have that the soul does not exist after death?
That's shifting the burden of proof. It's up to you to demonstrate that souls exist. Only after that is it reasonable to discuss what is or is not an effect of a soul.quote:
But maybe that is not the scientific way but it is the skeptical way.
No, the "skeptical way" is to evaluate the evidence before coming to a tentative conclusion. You have presented no reliable evidence, so there is nothing to evaluate. You say we should do the work ourselves, but there is no work to do. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 12:51:56 [Permalink]
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Why is it up to me to demonstrate? If that is the case then you might become a true believer. It is you who must decide the truth Dave? I already know. I have done the research. It is better to WORK for the truth then to just receive it. Evaluate it yourself. It can not be done overnight. True believer or Fence Sitter who are you? |
Storm |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 12:56:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
I never said that everything paranormal is a ghost. What evidence do you have that the soul does not exist after death? I have given you many different avenues to start on. You do the work and you let me know what you think. Do you think that ghosts are only the soul of the dead? Not everyone relies on mediums? you must loosen the chain of your Spiritualism beliefs.
Here we go again with the ol' "ball and chain" 
You have stated before that sounds we can not explain, or those that we really just don't care about, are ghosts.
As for the evidence I have, let me draw an example from real science. Cell theory. If you are not familiar with it, Click Here. One of the few and simple things it says is that all organisms are composed of one or more cells. How can someone know that everything living is made up of cells? Simple, you can't. But what we do know is that everything that has been observed is made up of living cells and there has been no evidence found otherwise.
The same is true when dealing with the soul after death. First of all, there is no evidence that a soul even exists. Now as for consciousness, all evidence we have observed shows that it stops right at the time of death. We have no evidence which even suggests otherwise.
quote:
There is no doubt in cases and I have researched many that natural occurrences can be attributed to ghostly phenomenon. But there are more equal if not more that can not be explained.
You have made this assertion, now please back it up.
quote:
Not all of websites, investigation groups, researchers, etc are fakes.
Ok, give me one that is not.
quote:
Now you will say well prove all that you just wrote to us and we can then maybe take your case seriously. I have given much proof.
Can someone go over what is acceptable evidence? I don't think my other posts on what can be accepted as evidence has gotten through to Storm
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 11/29/2004 12:57:13 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 13:44:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Siberia,
Have you read much on Spiritualism and it's influence on scientific research? If not you should do so? What cheesy photographs are you talking about? My website ones. Those are real photographs Why are your panties in such a bunch!! Relax. Read through my posts. There are books, websites, schools all that can help you decide. I am not here to convince anyone I merely here to guide you to open your mind. Take some time. Do some research.
And why are your panties in such fry that we don't buy what your website(s) and book(s) say? My panties have been pretty quiet, lately. They don't buy whatever anyone says. Nor does the person that occupies it. I haven't read a lot on spiritualism, hence why I asked what the heck do you mean by it. Of course, you won't answer that, now will you?
C'mom. I can do pictures just like that in a snap of fingers. Why should I believe yours are real? Because you say so isn't enough. I'd do that research, but there's a lot of competent people doing that, real scientists following real scientific methods, people that actually care.
Y'know, you keep saying WE must do that research and WE should find it ourselves, but all I see is that you simply refuse to give us a simple, unambiguous answer. I'm starting to think you simply don't have it.
I know doing research is lots of fun. Heck, I'm doing it for my book, willingly, because I want to. But honestly, you're the ghost expert. You should educate us. It's like saying an university is worthless because someone teaches us things... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 13:49:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Why is it up to me to demonstrate?
Because you're the one who claimed that some ghost phenomena might be explained by the actions of the souls of the living or the dead. If souls don't exist, then such explanations of ghost phenomena can be ignored as based upon fantasy.quote:
If that is the case then you might become a true believer.
Quite the opposite. I would know, not believe.quote:
It is you who must decide the truth Dave? I already know. I have done the research. It is better to WORK for the truth then to just receive it.
I got over that "I've got a secret" attitude back in grade school. The simple fact of the matter is that such a position is neither scientific nor skeptical. If you've got proof of souls, there's a Nobel Prize waiting for you.quote:
Evaluate it yourself. It can not be done overnight.
As I already said, you have presented nothing to evaluate. It doesn't need to be done overnight, as it takes no time at all to examine nothing.quote:
True believer or Fence Sitter who are you?
Even though the question presents a false dichotomy, I'm still sitting on the fence, waiting for evidence to be presented. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 14:24:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Why is it up to me to demonstrate? If that is the case then you might become a true believer. It is you who must decide the truth Dave? I already know. I have done the research. It is better to WORK for the truth then to just receive it. Evaluate it yourself. It can not be done overnight. True believer or Fence Sitter who are you?
The burden of proof is on the claimant. You have claimed the existance of souls. You have provided no evidence for it.
I believe in the existance of souls as a theological construct and therefore a matter of philosophy. I have exactly zero proof for this assertion and it is therefore, as all theological constructs from God, souls, and the invisible pink unicorn (blessed be his horn), unprovable/unscientific. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 15:06:29 [Permalink]
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Although not necessary, I've looked into the evidence regarding ghosts. I did this by three different means:
1: I typed in "no ghost" into google. I got 8,650,000 hits. There is in other words way more evidence against the existence of ghosts than there is for the existence of them.
2: I examined my own experiences. I haven't seen a ghost today. I didn't see one yesterday either. Come to think of it, I have never seen a ghost. My personal experience thus says that there are no ghosts.
3: Once upon a time I watched "Ghost" (with Patrik Swayze and Demi Moore?). There was a ghost in this film, so this nearly swayed me into accepting them as fact. But then I remembered that it was a Hollywood movie and was thus probably fictional. Again, no positive evidence for the existance of ghosts.
The above evidence has led me to the conclusion that there are no ghosts. Isn't scientific examination wonderful? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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