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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2001 : 17:12:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Like morals, taboos change with time, and half the time I don't even remember what is politically correct at the moment. However, I do know the language, and I do know tones, facial expressions, and body expression, and these tell me much more about a person's character than the words they use.
I don't want to say that the words we use aren't important. They are, but only in the context that they are being used. And, no matter what we do, some words will always be more offensive to some than others, and, maybe, that's why we choose to use them.
There is a George Carline routine on how words are only words, it is the context that makes them offensive or not. For example, some black rap group has a song titled "My Niggers", where nigger is used about 70 times in the song. At no point is it used as an insult, more like my buddies, friends, people.
Another example would be 'mensch'.(sp?) In the book series Deathgate Cycle it was a rather insulting, derogitory term. Just about everyone I know who read the series started using the word themselves. Later on I learned that it is also a hebrew word (or at least sounds similar) which is a great compliment. It is just a word, it is the context that matters.
Oh, and I don't worry too much about the sex talk. Teens seem to know it all already.
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 19:02:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Who really cares what the color of someone's skin is? Is there a difference once that is stripped away?
Wow, kewl, Trish!
Next time you go out skinning people, let me know... I've never tried it!
 
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 19:22:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
For example, some black rap group has a song titled "My Niggers", where nigger is used about 70 times in the song. At no point is it used as an insult, more like my buddies, friends, people.
In the movie "Rush Hour", with Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker, they go to a bar in which the bartender and all the clientelle are black. Chris Tucker walks up and says, "What's up, my niggah?", and the bartender says hi, and tells him the guy he wants to see is in the back. Jackie stays up front, smiling and looking around uncomfortably, and finally looks at the bartender, and says, in broken English, "What's up, my nigger!" The bartender says, "WHAT did you say?!" and reaches over the bar, and proceeds to start a fight in which Jackie beats the crap out of about 5 guys, while trying to understand what he said wrong!
quote:
Another example would be 'mensch'.(sp?) In the book series Deathgate Cycle
Haplo is one of my favorite characters. He and his dog...
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2001 : 21:38:55 [Permalink]
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I remember when I was a young fella one of my best friends was Jewish....Now, my parents are both German which obviously upset my mates parents and they disallowed me to have any contact with him.....
How in the hell does a 6 year old understand prejudice like that....
I suppose that's the world we live in though....
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2001 : 02:41:21 [Permalink]
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Okay. I think most of us agree that the true meaning of words can be found in their context, but no matter how reprehensible some words may seem, (to some people), think of the richness they add to the language.
For example: imagine being alone with Jerry Falwell, and the topic arises of the completely unconstitutional idea of YOUR tax dollars paying for HIS kids to go to a parochial school. Wouldn't you feel much better ranting with an entire littany of choice expletives, rather than just saying, "Well golly, Mr. Falwell, but don't you think that is just a tad unconstitutional?" I don't know about you, but I would much rather tell him in no uncertain terms where, exactly, to plant his lips.
Er, ah...Please, excuse my momentary lapse of open mindedness, and my temporary lack of tolerance for opposing views, but sometimes it feels soooo good.
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2001 : 19:12:40 [Permalink]
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A tale, illustrating that there are still some things that you can't say on the radio, and that the meaning of what we would generally take as slurs depends on context:
A few years ago, when I still lived in Philly, I found myself assigned to do a "radio edit" of a Kurupt tune.
Now, "radio edit" can mean different things. In most pop music, it means finding a way to cut a long song down to a more radio-friendly length. If you're dealing with gangsta rap, however, it means removing all the appearances of certain words.
The simple fact that the label would pay for the studio time involved demonstrates that there really are things that you don't say on your record if you want airplay; whether this is a regulatory prohibition or just the demands of the broadcasters I can't say.
It turned out that one of the words we had to excise was "nigger", and it popped up in this song a LOT.
We used various tricks to ditch the proscribed words. Sometimes we reversed them, sometimes we cut them out and edited in a sound effect to cover the hole, sometimes we applied an effect that would make them unintelligible while keeping the rhythm intact. In the case of the chorus ("I'm just a Dogg Pound nigger, I'm never gonna give it up...") I had to get the guy who had sung the chorus to sing the word "gangster" so that I could cut it in as a replacement.
One useful trick in doing digital editing is to set the computer to loop playback of the selected audio, that is, play what you've marked over and over. If a selection loops without audible glitching it's a good indication that you can cut at its beginning and end points without creating a nasty artifact. This was a quick job, so that was my test for each new edit.
So, there I was sitting in the control room with half a dozen rappers, and the computer shouting "nigger, nigger, nigger" over and over.
And I was the only guy in the room who felt uncomfortable about it.
Boris Karloff died for your sins. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2001 : 21:10:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
There is a George Carline routine on how words are only words, it is the context that makes them offensive or not. For example, some black rap group has a song titled "My Niggers", where nigger is used about 70 times in the song. At no point is it used as an insult, more like my buddies, friends, people.
There is a sociological theory that describes this phenomenon that seems to be evinced by language evolution history in this case. Most memorably in the Jim Crow south (and well before), "nigger" was a derogatory corruption of "negro." The modern use of the word by African-Americans is an empowerment by basically forcing the word, through self-usage, to mean something else. This, from www.wordorigins.com
quote:
This most offensive of words in American speech dates back to the late 16th century, although the modern spelling doesn't appear until two centuries later. The OED2's earliest cite of the modern spelling is from 1786 in Burns's Ordination. (The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, however, claims that this is an editorial error and Burns's original manuscript uses the older niger.) The obsolete spelling niger dates to 1574. It derives from the Latin niger meaning black. It shares this common root with negro.
The offensiveness of the term has increased over time, especially in the 20th century. Two 16th century quotes that are commonly cited in dictionaries are from scholarly tracts. A 1700 quote by judge Samuel Sewall uses the term in a denunciation of slavery. Gradually, however, polite discourse increasingly used the term negro (which dates to at least 1555) and nigger became relegated to the vulgar tongue, increasing in offensiveness over the centuries.
So for instance, when Mark Twain uses the word in Huckleberry Finn, by the standards of his day he is not being especially offensive (although even then it was a term that would not be used in polite society), but is using the term as a marker of class and socio-economic status of the characters who utter it.
In the 20th century of course, it has become extremely offensive. It, along with cunt are just about the only taboo words in American discourse today (it's interesting that the most offensive terms have strong racial or gender discrimination components). About the only acceptable use is in Black English when African-Americans use it to refer to themselves. (There is a similar reclamation of the word queer among homosexuals to rob the term of its offensiveness of the term by using it to refer to themselves.)
It is etymologically unrelated to the word niggard.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Wolfgang_faust
Skeptic Friend
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 15:37:34 [Permalink]
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I had to go with #1. I personally can not stand the ignorance that goes along with prejudice. Everyone of those words attacks a certain group. I just don't understand how backwards people in todays world can be. Just my opinion
Add value to every day, Sharpen your skills, your understanding |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 13:17:09 [Permalink]
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[quote]
So, there I was sitting in the control room with half a dozen rappers, and the computer shouting "nigger, nigger, nigger" over and over.
And I was the only guy in the room who felt uncomfortable about it.
[/quote]
This is quite possibly the best personal anecdote I have ever read on a bbs. Bravo.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2002 : 05:32:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Another example would be 'mensch'.(sp?) In the book series Deathgate Cycle it was a rather insulting, derogitory term.
Just got this in my A Word A Day email:
mensch (mench, mensh) noun, plural menschen (MEN-chuhn, MEN-shuhn) or mensches
A decent, upright, honorable person.
[From Yiddish mentsh (man, human being), from Middle High German mensch,
from Old High German mennisco.]
I wonder if Weiss and Hickman used that word on purpose?
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Wiley
Skeptic Friend
68 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2002 : 16:42:19 [Permalink]
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I have not read the Deathgate cycle, but I have read other books by them. And I would be very, very surprised if they did not know the meaning of the word mensch. They are not the type of writers to use a word they did not know, and mensch is not an uncommon word.
Also with a name like Weiss, I would not be surprised if someone in her family spoke Yiddish.
Edited by - Wiley on 04/30/2002 16:43:07 |
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Robert
New Member
Korea
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2002 : 05:49:09 [Permalink]
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i think so called "swearing" is a bunch of shit! I am sick of people telling me to watch my mouth, or seeing signs posted that say "No Profanity" I think the issue originated with so called "good parents" trying to censor their kids from what they saw as obcene. I refuse to shut up simply because their are kids or sensitive people near by... If I have to listen to the President Thank his God for something... than everyone around me will hear what I have to say as well
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2002 : 08:04:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
i think so called "swearing" is a bunch of shit! I am sick of people telling me to watch my mouth, or seeing signs posted that say "No Profanity" I think the issue originated with so called "good parents" trying to censor their kids from what they saw as obcene. I refuse to shut up simply because their are kids or sensitive people near by... If I have to listen to the President Thank his God for something... than everyone around me will hear what I have to say as well
There is a time and a place for it I think. When I went to the football a couple of weeks ago with my 8 year old nephew, there were some drunken idiots saying “Fuck that guy can't play footy, he's a useless c***.” and things similar to that.
I asked them to stop swearing around the kid, all I got was a resounding “Get fucked”…so I moved somewhere else. He's not my child after all although I must admit that I wanted to shut them up with some severe uppercuts…lol.
I'm not a prude or anything, but the little guy shouldn't have to listen to that crap. There are a lot of families at the footy and swearing like that a little unnecessary.
Also, I thin the c-word is inappropriate around some people....as much as I love using it because it can be quite effective....
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2002 : 07:54:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
i think so called "swearing" is a bunch of shit! I am sick of people telling me to watch my mouth, or seeing signs posted that say "No Profanity" I think the issue originated with so called "good parents" trying to censor their kids from what they saw as obcene. I refuse to shut up simply because their are kids or sensitive people near by... If I have to listen to the President Thank his God for something... than everyone around me will hear what I have to say as well
There is a time and a place for it I think. When I went to the football a couple of weeks ago with my 8 year old nephew, there were some drunken idiots saying “Fuck that guy can't play footy, he's a useless c***.” and things similar to that.
I asked them to stop swearing around the kid, all I got was a resounding “Get fucked”…so I moved somewhere else. He's not my child after all although I must admit that I wanted to shut them up with some severe uppercuts…lol.
I'm not a prude or anything, but the little guy shouldn't have to listen to that crap. There are a lot of families at the footy and swearing like that a little unnecessary.
Also, I thin the c-word is inappropriate around some people....as much as I love using it because it can be quite effective....
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin
I think part of that is just being rude and hateful to other human beings not so much the foul language. I can be quite foul mouthed without being hateful towards another human.
In your example it is the behavior of the idiots towards the players that would in my opinion be the most harmful to the young one, not the usage of "foul" words.
Being a father I personally no longer use foul language as much as I can help only to help me not do it around my own children. I know they will hear it any way, but I can at least be an example and correct them when they do it without being a hypocrite (my 7 year old called me a pussy the other day, LOL).
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 12:33:21 [Permalink]
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Don't know anything about soccer, but if you were in the U.S. and talking about pro football, I'd wonder about the wisdom of taking a child to see drunken people watch massive people destroy each other's joints before I worried about what they were saying, but you're right about the language.
For a while there it seemed as though every rap fan in town had to park in the grocery store parking lot so we made sure we heard Snoop Dogg repeat the 'F'word 8,000 times.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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