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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 12/04/2004 : 13:52:10
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This may prove interesting...
Note the strawmen he makes use of.
ex) the "work" done by Paul Vitz.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2004 : 07:37:38 [Permalink]
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Boy, what a weak argument. If I understand, his main reason for thinking that there are no "true" atheists is his observation that there have never been any atheist martyrs. That is, no one has died because they were atheist.
Leaving aside for the moment the accuracy of this claim (are there any atheist martyrs? I don't know), the fact that atheism has been possible only in the last 200 years or so has probably played a role in this. And then, more importantly, is it a good indicator by which to judge one's atheism? Probably not.
I have half a mind to go join the Christian Forum site, but I'd rather he just come here and try to make the same argument. Perhaps I'll just email him and see if he want to come tell skeptics that they're all a bunch of phonies... |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2004 : 08:33:36 [Permalink]
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I wonder. During the Inquisition, lots of people were killed. Some might've been atheists. Some might've refused to profess a religion they didn't believe in. Would that make them atheist martyrs?
Of course, that's just wild speculation from my part. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2004 : 09:12:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
I wonder. During the Inquisition, lots of people were killed. Some might've been atheists. Some might've refused to profess a religion they didn't believe in. Would that make them atheist martyrs?
Of course, that's just wild speculation from my part.
Well, people were killed, true. But it wasn't (as far as I understand it) for being atheist, but rather for not professing a particular brand of Christianity.
I get my notions of atheism not being possible before ca. the 19th century from James Turner's book Without God, Without Creed, where he writes that "there is no clear evidence that any permanent state of unbelief . . . ever actually existed in the Middle Ages," (p. 2) and that it was only in "the late nineteenth century [that] unbelief had become a fully available option" (p. 4).
If he's right, then it's entirely unlikely that there would be atheist martyrs since, in the western world, at least, killing people for their religion (or lack thereof) was not very commonplace.
But would we ever expect an atheist to die for her or his atheism? If you're a Christian, then dying for your belief makes sense-- after all, you think that once you die you get to go to paradise for all eternity. Renouncing that for a few years of life on a generally miserable earth just isn't worth it. But if you're an atheist, that's all you have. Hell, I'd happily profess to believe in giant purple rabbits if someone put a gun to my head and asked me to say so... |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2004 : 09:41:35 [Permalink]
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Like I said, just wild speculation 
Then again, yeah, I can see how unlikely it'd be for someone in Middle Ages to be atheist - in a world infested with superstitions...
Then again. Guess martyrdom is a by-product of fanaticism, no? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Shacal
Skeptic Friend
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2004 : 10:48:55 [Permalink]
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I would recommend Doubt: a History to anyone looking for examples of atheist and agnostic martyrs. The author shows how all these stories have been forgotten or actively suppressed by whatever the current religious establishment was. She also busts the myth that atheism is a recent invention, and shows that its history is just as rich as belief.
On the topic of this challenge: What kind of standard of belief is martyrdom? Atheists don't (usually) believe in an afterlife, and therefore would be less willing to die for their cause. Theists on the other hand, selfishly believe that by killing themselves (and often others) that they will be granted eternal life. Of course one of these two values systems is going to produce more martyrs. I hope this demonstrates that “martyrdom” is an arbitrary measure of dedication to a cause.
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"The problem with communication is the illusion that we have accomplished it" |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2004 : 12:36:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Shacal
I would recommend Doubt: a History to anyone looking for examples of atheist and agnostic martyrs. The author shows how all these stories have been forgotten or actively suppressed by whatever the current religious establishment was. She also busts the myth that atheism is a recent invention, and shows that its history is just as rich as belief.
On the topic of this challenge: What kind of standard of belief is martyrdom? Atheists don't (usually) believe in an afterlife, and therefore would be less willing to die for their cause. Theists on the other hand, selfishly believe that by killing themselves (and often others) that they will be granted eternal life. Of course one of these two values systems is going to produce more martyrs. I hope this demonstrates that “martyrdom” is an arbitrary measure of dedication to a cause.
Hi, Shacal. Thanks for the reference-- I'll be sure to have a look and compare it to the arguments suggested in Without God, Without Creed. But you're right regarding the value of the argument over atheist martyrs. What atheist would rather be burned at the stake than recite some jibberish about Jesus or whatever and then go about her or his day? |
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