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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 12/19/2004 : 07:00:55 [Permalink]
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What are you defining as Hell siberia? The Christian Hell? Damnation? Jesus took all that away.. Unconditional love Forgivness. No more Hebrew Law. Jesus Christ is the new covenent with man. That is if you believe that stuff. I saw the coolest dude on faith under fire last night. Shelby Spong. Anyone heard of him? Very interesting things to say grasshopper Well off to work check ya out later. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 09:41:46 [Permalink]
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| Since we're talking about the desert god, I'm using their definition of hell, burning sulphur and whatnot. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 10:35:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Open you eyes, girl!
I know we seem ignorant and unenlightened to each other. Please understand, my eyes are open. I was a believer in the deepest, truest sense of the word. Nothing terrible or traumatic happened to change my mind. Being objective and logical changed my mind. People believe in God(s) because they want to believe, not because He exists.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
But let's go beyond the specific.
I would prefer to be specific, but I can certainly understand why you would prefer to generalize. It is much easier to get away with vague explanations and rationalizations when dealing in generalities. Have it your way.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Every day the sun comes up, God is being good to you and all men. Every time it rains, God is being good to all farmers, good and bad people alike. When you get well from sickness, God is being good to you. You have food on your table and shelter and clothes, God is good to you. And if you have nothing at all, God is there to give grace to the needy and courage, the greater the need the more grace He provides. Every kind word, every blessing you receive comes from God. "Every good and perfect gift comes from above from the Father of lights.."
Doomar, as I stated earlier, this tack is tiresome. The sun comes up for everyone. God is not selective about the sun. It shines for me and for Charles Manson, and everyone in between. If you site it as "God being good to you" you make my point that he is arbitrary, as many bad people enjoy the use of the sun.
Many good people are sick. Many bad people are healthy.
I have food, shelter and clothing because I have a job. I have a job because I do what my employer expects from me. If I ceased to perform as required by my employer, he would fire me. Then, absent another job, I would soon cease to have those things.
As for grace given to the needy, it comes in the form of charitable donations.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
When we see sick and starving people, in so many cases, there is God, working among them
I was a Red Cross volunteer for quite a few years. I never saw God working.
People are responsible for the condition of the world. People do both good things, and bad things. They are accountable to each other and, more importantly, to themselves. Then they die. It's that simple. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 15:14:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
That would be presumption to believe that because you knew someone would behave in such a way that you were the one that caused it to happen. That's where the whole "free will" thing comes in. An inherent part of love is free choice.
You fail to understand the implications of omnipotence and omniscience.
There can be no free will in a universe created by an omnipotent being. The only thing that can exist is the INTENT of that being.
quote:
I dare say almost everyone in this room has at one point been softened in his or her heart, that is, allowed compassion for another person, or pity, or mercy. You may think this happened on your own, not with God's influence, but think again.
How pathetic is that? You can't feel compassion unless god lets you?
Even more pathetic is that you don't even see you contradicting yourself here. If we have free will, then god cannot manipulate us to feel or do anything. If he does, then we don't truly have free will.
It's all irellevant anyway, because if we were created by an omnipotent god, then free will is not possible.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 16:29:04 [Permalink]
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| That is if you believe in all that shit!!! There are many desert Gods. You must be talking about Yahweh. I agree to some extent with dude although I think that one can still have free will . It's just that God gets to screw with your choices. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 16:52:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
I agree to some extent with dude although I think that one can still have free will . It's just that God gets to screw with your choices.
The two concepts, omnipotent god and free will, are mutually exclusive. By definition an omnipotent being knows everything and can do anything. If you were created by such a being, then you are nothing more than the expression of that being's intent. You do not have free will, because you have been created by a being that has full knowledge of every action you will ever take, every decision you will ever make, ect.. Being created by such a being contains within it the inescapable fact that you cannot possess free will. You exist only as an expression of the will of god. God, knowing all there is to know, creates you. God knows everything you ever do. Therefore, even if your name is Adolf Hitler, all actions you undertake are done so with the full knowledge and consent of god.
If god is omnipotent it also, by the way, nullifies all ethics and morals. There is no longer the possibility of right vs wrong, only the expression of god's intent.
So, really, the only rational conclusion is that there is no omnipotent god. Anything else is just your personal fantasy of rationalization.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 18:45:08 [Permalink]
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I must say I disagree Dude. omnipotent means having virtually unlimited authority or influence. omniscient means having infinite awareness, understanding, This does not mean God has already decided each and everyones fate and there is no free will.
It means that while God does have unlimited authority and influence he still allows us to choose or have free will. In his infinite awareness he knows of the choices we are to make and he understands. That is of course if you believe these things. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 19:47:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
It means that while God does have unlimited authority and influence he still allows us to choose or have free will. In his infinite awareness he knows of the choices we are to make and he understands. That is of course if you believe these things.
Here's the real problem: God's allegedly infinite "mercy" in light of His infinite knowledge.
Say you're God. You know full well that at some point in the future, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha are going to be chock-full of nasty people. What's more merciful? Punishing the thousands of people who will live there in a few hundred years, or punishing the few people who started the cities (or who will popularize sin in them), thus eliminating the need for a big fire-and-brimstone show?
The thing I've often heard the devout say in answer to this question is, "well, God is perfect, thus He must have had a reason for waiting." But such a reason isn't in the Bible, anywhere. Doomar suggests that the destruction of the cities is an object lesson in how one shouldn't piss off God, but who the hell wants to follow a God whose primary method of motivation for people to choose good over evil is the fear of death and eternal torment? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 19:58:38 [Permalink]
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I agree with dude on this issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
omniscient means having infinite awareness, understanding, This does not mean God has already decided each and everyones fate and there is no free will.
If this god has infinite awareness, then that level of awareness implies that we are only responding to choices according to some fixed script. God is aware of that fixed script. The decisions we make are known by god prior to our making them. Probably since the moment of creation.
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
It means that while God does have unlimited authority and influence he still allows us to choose or have free will. In his infinite awareness he knows of the choices we are to make and he understands.
Then all we really have is the illusion of free will. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 20:05:05 [Permalink]
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Exactly Dave who wants to worship that God. That's o.k. there is many more to choose from. But don't think they won't be just as wacked out. What do we define as perfection Dave? is God perfect? I do not think so. Maybe perfection is found in the unconditional and sacrificial life of God the human Jesus Christ. I do not know that God knew in advance about Sodom and Gomorrha. He might have tried to influence them and through free will they made there choices and god punished them. not very omniscient of him.
For someone so against my paranormal posts you sure know alot about religion. Chrisyianity in particuliar? So have you heard of Shelby Spong? http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/ check out his website.  |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 20:23:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
For someone so against my paranormal posts you sure know alot about religion.
Oh, forcryingoutloud! What the heck makes you think I'm "against" your "paranormal posts?" What I'm opposed to is - for just a few examples - your misuse of the word 'theory', your reliance upon the argument from ignorance, and your insistence that because something is popular, it must be true.
Secondly, why is it that you think that someone who disputes the existence of the paranormal should be ignorant of religion? I've told you before, Storm: it is a mistake to think that the people who are arguing against you know less than you do about the paranormal.quote:
So have you heard of Shelby Spong? http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/ check out his website.
What does he have to do with anything? Is there a particular part of his website that you think is relevant to this thread? Does he answer the "why does God do bad things" question? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 23:30:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
I must say I disagree Dude. omnipotent means having virtually unlimited authority or influence. omniscient means having infinite awareness, understanding, This does not mean God has already decided each and everyones fate and there is no free will.
You do not understand the definition of the word then. Onmipotent does NOT mean having virtually unlimited authority or influence.
quote:
om·nip·o·tent
adj.
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.
n.
One having unlimited power or authority:
quote:
It means that while God does have unlimited authority and influence he still allows us to choose or have free will.
The paradox of omniptence, yes. There are some things that cannot be accomplished by an omnipotent being, if that being wishes to remain omnipotent. Mainly, the granting of free will to anything it creates. In order for god to "grant" us free will, god would, by necessity, be forced to relenquish omnipotence. By "granting" free will to us humans, god then cannot then continue to be omniscient, and is therefore no longer omnipotent.
quote:
In his infinite awareness he knows of the choices we are to make and he understands
If an omnipotent god knows what we are going to do, and creates us in full knowledge of our every "decision" (as on omnicient god must do), then we do not posess free will, we are nothing more than an extension of god's intent. I can only repeat this so many ways before it becomes massively redundant.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2004 : 13:19:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I can only repeat this so many ways before it becomes massively redundant.
Amen, brother.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2004 : 00:28:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Yep. So he sends the rain that helps the farmers.
He also sends the flood that kills many, many people, good or evil alike. That sends people to the streets moaning because they've lost their houses, children and everything, all because of the flood. Isn't it?
It's so nice to speak about how you've food and clothes and health care, when you don't see it everyday, now isn't it? Everyday, thousands of children on the streets, starving. Everyday, thousands of old people on the streets, begging to have their money so they can buy food for their families. I'm pretty sure those people starving in Africa are pretty thankful to God, aren't they? Only it may not be your desert god. It's their god[s].
What about the indians? Are they going to hell, because they've never heard of your desert-borne god? They've committed many sins, haven't they? Worshipped other gods, just to name one. Who's right, then?
Wow, so many question. Start your own thread to discuss them. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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