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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 12/23/2004 : 09:31:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar:
The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist. Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal. World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion".
Bullshit. And you know it…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 13:35:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
[size=1]If you are firmly entrenched in your belief that there is no God, why do you constantly seek to debate a "non issue"?
Strawman: Atheists merely lack a God belief, they do not actively believe there is no God.
quote:
What does it matter what other people think? What is this notion you have of "evangelizing" the believing to your side of "unbelieving"?
Strawman: pointing out logical and syllogistic flaws in arguementation and pointing out hypocricy underscores logical errors, not prostelyzation of others to share in lacking a God belief. It attempts to make believers at least follow the dictates of their God or recognize the illogical conclusions they make about their theological constructs.
quote:
Where is that in the atheist handbook?
No such document exists.
quote:
Now the Christian teachings promote love for your neighbor and caring for his soul, as they believe in an after life and the coming day of judgment, but atheists?
Since they lack a God belief and the concept of an afterlife are meaningless to atheists, why should they care about such things?
Atheists are bound by a moral code to do good to others based on the rewards in this life. Loving thy neighbor will enable them to be percieved as a good person, gives some modicum of self esteem, and allows them to sell products to a wider audience.
quote:
What is the point? A better world for all atheists without having to hear any notion of God or Jesus or any other name of supposed diety? Exactly.
Perhaps they just don't want to be bombarded by the message by pushy people insisting that their way is the only way.
quote:
All the atheistic goals are selfish and self-centered. The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist.
Subverted support: Atheists have the goal of having a safe, secure place to live with low crime and an environment good for raising their children just like everyone else. This is more than enough reason to do good acts.
quote:
Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal. World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion". Wow, now that is a deep goal.
Nope, atheists have goals to make society a better place for children and adults. They just happen to be attacked most often for objecting to religion being foisted on them at every turn.
quote:
The utter selfishness of such societies and their apparent disregard for the religion of others by their goals shows the atheists to simply be a group of negatively obsessed people, constantly focusing what they don't believe and don't want in life, except for their own pleasure. May God help them, lest they destroy society in their utterly selfish attempt to eliminate all that is religious from it.
Atheists don't seek to remove religion from society, they seek the basic right to be left the hell alone. Most atheists I have had contact with are generally upbeat and interested in the aquisition of knowledge.
quote:
Now you may not fit that category exactly, Dave, but it is that society that you support. The fact that billions do believe there is a god should have some bearing on the matter. But am am going to refrain from further anti-atheistic comments in this thread. I do not hate atheists or want them all punished or isolated. On the contrary, I wish them well in their search for truth, hoping it will not stop on the obvious wrong answer for too long.
10% of people believe in UFO's. Billions of people believe in Buddhaism and Islam, which, according to Christians, bow to the wrong God. Just because a lot of people believe something is not evidence of the existance of something. There is no obvious answer here. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 14:15:49 [Permalink]
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Forgive me, I only read the last 2 pages and just want to give my 2 half-pennies.
It just seems that there is alot of gross generalization. Atheists do this, believe this, have these goals.
Can an Atheist do good deeds?? Sure thing just as Christians, Muslims, Hindus et al can do good.
But it begs the question, what is good?
One thing I believe in, obeying the law, secular or religous doesn't make you good. Just law abiding. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2004 : 20:53:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Actually, Dave, there is much evidence. How do you think the Israeli people, a group of about 2 million people, survived for 40 years wandering in the desert lands NE of Egypt?
First, where is the extra-Biblical evidence that the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years?quote:
It seems the obvious escapes many people....the fact that Pharaoh's (this is correct spelling) army did not catch and kill or bring back the Israelites is further support.
Your implied assertion that the Bible is prima facie evidence of these events is what is being questioned here, Doomar. I do not assume that because the Bible says something is true, it is true. Where is the evidence of four-legged grasshoppers?quote:
And how 'bout the thousands of years of history described therein? All of that is disputed, huh? Of course it is. Why would you think it wouldn't be disputed, Dave? But many affirm the facts contained therein, so who is right?
Yes, there is a lot of evidence to support parts of the Bible, but that doesn't make the rest of the Bible true. While the simple histories within are often true (such as the existence of a place called Jerusalem), the more fantastic stories have no support. This is, of course, a pattern shared with modern-day "historical fiction," in which authors take real people and places and wrap stories around them. It's quite a popular genre.quote:
To think that you must resort to old atheistic ideas to dispel or refute my reasonings about "why God does "bad" things" is really off topic. If you want a study of why atheists don't believe the Bible and dispute everything in it, then start your own thread.
Um, no. You, in this thread, asked atheists some questions. You should have started a new thread to ask them, if you didn't want the answers to be posted here.quote:
Why do you even care, though? If you are firmly entrenched in your belief that there is no God, why do you constantly seek to debate a "non issue"?
I am not an active disbeliever. This is more of your prejudice. You agreed, earlier in this thread, to work on removing your own sins. I suggest you start now, during the Christmas season.quote:
What does it matter what other people think?
When I am part of a small minority in this country, of course it matters what the majority thinks.quote:
What is this notion you have of "evangelizing" the believing to your side of "unbelieving"?
Why don't you tell me, as I have no idea of what you speak.quote:
Where is that in the atheist handbook?
Again, you will have to tell me.quote:
Now the Christian teachings promote love for your neighbor and caring for his soul, as they believe in an after life and the coming day of judgment, but atheists? What is the point?
Well, I cannot speak for all atheists (as you seem to think you can), but this atheist believes that a world at peace, with less injustice done by people against other people, would be a better world for his descendants to live in. Christians, in my experience (and you in particular), seem to not give a damn about such issues, instead focusing on "souls" and God, often while stepping over the downtrodden.quote:
A better world for all atheists without having to hear any notion of God or Jesus or any other name of supposed diety?
This sentence no verb.quote:
Exactly. All the atheistic goals are selfish and self-centered.
Actually, the Christian goal of finding salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour is utterly and completely selfish, and imposes no requirement that one should give of oneself. Under the idea of "salvation through faith alone," one can ignore one's fellows. All that matters is you and God.quote:
The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist.
Your anti-atheist bigotry is showing, again. But I will counter by saying that the "betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to" those who believe the Rapture will occur within their lifetimes, too. Christians, it seems, are not above not giving a rat's ass.quote:
Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal.
What Bible verse shows it is a Christian goal?quote:
World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion".
What Bible verse shows "world peace" to be a Christian goal? And I find much in your religion which is morally bankrupt, so yes, I would like to be free of it. Why do you seek to impose it upon people?quote:
Wow, now that is a deep goal.
Actually, it is very deep. That you don't understand it is a symptom of your prejudice. You think you know things about atheists, but those things aren't true.quote:
The utter selfishness of such societies and their apparent disregard for the religion of others by their goals shows the atheists to simply be a grou |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2004 : 01:01:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist. Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal. World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion".
Thank you for demonstrating to this forum that you are a an ignorant bigot.
I am an atheist.
I am also a registered nurse. For the last decade I have worked in a rather thankless profession with the goal of helping others.
Until my recent return to formal education, in an attempt to earn a new BA with the goal of attending graduate school, I used to volunteer time to help the elderly in my community.
I have served in my country's military during a time of war.
I place the wellbeing of my family and friends far above my "own pleasure", as you put it.
I could go on and on here... but it's clear you know nothing of what any atheist actually believes or values. You are blinded by your moronic faith.
quote:
Exactly. All the atheistic goals are selfish and self-centered.
As Dave_W said so well... the goal of personal salvation, which is the primary motivating belief of you christians, is the single most selfish goal ever. You people place your personal desire to go to heaven before any other concern, including the poor, hungry, ect... so you can take your bigoted religious attitude and cram it.
But wait...
This is all just a smokescreen so that you don't have to respond to the logical inconsitencies (which have made you uncomfortable to the point of lashing out against atheists) with your god!
I don't blame you really. It's difficult to try and defend the indefensible. In fact, I view your reaction as an concession of the points. To bad your pride (isn't that a sin?) won't just let you admit it.
Thank you for acknowledging that your christian god is nonsense.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2004 : 16:53:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Also, there being no god, then all the natural disasters are without intelligent direction or purpose and occur only by chance, therefore, is it your contention that the many displays of "natures" power, pestilence, flies, locuts, lice, boils, frogs, blood, darkness, fire and lightning, killing of all "first born" animals and humans alike on the same night, parting the Red Sea, drowning of Pharoah's army, pillars of fire, food falling on the ground every morning to feed 2 million people every day for 40 years were all mere coincidence or what?
A mere coincidence? No. More likely some of these events had a natural explanation, some were plagerized from existing fables and stories, and some were likely fabricated by the human authors. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2004 : 17:12:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Actually, Dave, there is much evidence. How do you think the Israeli people, a group of about 2 million people, survived for 40 years wandering in the desert lands NE of Egypt? It seems the obvious escapes many people....the fact that Pharaoh's (this is correct spelling) army did not catch and kill or bring back the Israelites is further support. And how 'bout the thousands of years of history described therein? All of that is disputed, huh? Of course it is. Why would you think it wouldn't be disputed, Dave? But many affirm the facts contained therein, so who is right?
To think that you must resort to old atheistic ideas to dispel or refute my reasonings about "why God does "bad" things" is really off topic. If you want a study of why atheists don't believe the Bible and dispute everything in it, then start your own thread. Why do you even care, though? If you are firmly entrenched in your belief that there is no God, why do you constantly seek to debate a "non issue"? What does it matter what other people think? What is this notion you have of "evangelizing" the believing to your side of "unbelieving"? Where is that in the atheist handbook? Now the Christian teachings promote love for your neighbor and caring for his soul, as they believe in an after life and the coming day of judgment, but atheists? What is the point? A better world for all atheists without having to hear any notion of God or Jesus or any other name of supposed diety? Exactly. All the atheistic goals are selfish and self-centered. The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist. Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal. World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion". Wow, now that is a deep goal. The utter selfishness of such societies and their apparent disregard for the religion of others by their goals shows the atheists to simply be a group of negatively obsessed people, constantly focusing what they don't believe and don't want in life, except for their own pleasure. May God help them, lest they destroy society in their utterly selfish attempt to eliminate all that is religious from it. Now you may not fit that category exactly, Dave, but it is that society that you support. The fact that billions do believe there is a god should have some bearing on the matter. But am am going to refrain from further anti-atheistic comments in this thread. I do not hate atheists or want them all punished or isolated. On the contrary, I wish them well in their search for truth, hoping it will not stop on the obvious wrong answer for too long.
I go away for a week and miss the Doomar meltdown. It is clear that he is incapable of thinking outside the book, at least in this thread he has not shown himself capable of doing so.
One point that I would like to make is that I would not like to see all religion wiped out. My Mother and my wifes parents find their belief in god to be quite consoling. And I suspect that you too, Doomar, are consoled by your beliefs. But remember it was you who step into a skeptics forum and had your beliefs challenged. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2004 : 17:23:07 [Permalink]
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Yeah, right. I'd love to see religion wiped out. The sole thing that gave my mom's life meaning, yeah, I'd like to see that gone...
[/sarcasm] |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2004 : 09:17:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
[quote]Originally posted by Kil
[quote]Doomar:
The betterment of the world or society is irrelevant to the atheist. Feeding and clothing the poor is not an atheist goal. World peace is not their agenda, but "freedom from religion".
Bullshit. And you know it…
Damnit Doomar, I'm going to have to buy another bull shit detector, mine just broke. But thanks for telling me what I think anyways. I certainly didn't know what I thought, I'm glad that you did.
What I am meaning is that the ideals of atheism are not for the betterment of others, but selfish in nature. That is not to say that individuals do not do unselfish acts, but that those acts are contrary to atheism and very much a part of "religion". And therein is the atheist torn, believing there is no God or afterlife, yet doing an unselfish deed, contrary to the beliefs of atheism, in that, charitable deeds are part of religious practice and/or Christian teaching. Wanting the "good" parts of godliness, yet denying the God who promotes them. Also, I think I need to note that according to Biblical teaching, man is inherintly evil and continually sinning against God and bound in that nature, therefore, whenever he does a kind deed or acts unselfishly it is by the grace of God, enabling him to do so, inspite of his nature to the contrary, and as an atheist, one takes credit for any good one does without even acknowledging a higher power, which, again, is vanity within the person. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2004 : 11:24:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar:
That is not to say that individuals do not do unselfish acts, but that those acts are contrary to atheism and very much a part of "religion". And therein is the atheist torn, believing there is no God or afterlife, yet doing an unselfish deed, contrary to the beliefs of atheism, in that, charitable deeds are part of religious practice and/or Christian teaching. Wanting the "good" parts of godliness, yet denying the God who promotes them.
Well Doomar, you are a closed circuit. An atheist who does an unselfish deed is acting contrary to the beliefs of atheism, eh?
Atheism is a rejection of theism and nothing more. There are no atheistic beliefs other than it seems unlikely that God or Gods exist. Every other belief that you have attempted to heap upon atheists are your beliefs, and nothing more.
Doing unselfish deeds is not contrary to the nature of atheists. It may be contrary to a Christians nature since they feel that they are sinners but atheists do not share that belief. That is a Christian belief, and frankly, it borders on insanity to think that all unselfish acts happen because Christianity exists. That is a Christian centrist belief and it is baloney of the first degree. Simply stated, it's bigotry. It just doesn't or can't occur to you that unselfish acts can have nothing to do with God. And that is a pity and the source of your bigotry.
Unlike you, I can do good things without Gods gun to my head. I am not trying to worm my way into heaven by doing what is right. I do it because it will make the world a better place to live in. That is my hope anyway. I do it because it is right. Not because I am compelled to by a spirit in the sky. And here is another news flash for you. I was not born a sinner. You were. I'm sorry that you feel you must fight the compulsion to sin. That is a religious construct for those who feel that they will be out of control and do bad things without the threat of punishment from without. It is a belief for those who think they have little or no self-control. I suppose you have bought into that belief because I doubt that you were born with such insecurity.
Anyhow, you will probably never be able to view those people's ideas you don't share without filtering that information through the religous construct that makes you a bigot. As I said at the beginning, you are a closed circuit… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2004 : 21:12:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
What I am meaning is that the ideals of atheism are not for the betterment of others, but selfish in nature. That is not to say that individuals do not do unselfish acts, but that those acts are contrary to atheism and very much a part of "religion". And therein is the atheist torn, believing there is no God or afterlife, yet doing an unselfish deed, contrary to the beliefs of atheism, in that, charitable deeds are part of religious practice and/or Christian teaching.
Since you know so much about the "ideals" of atheism why don't you share them with us?
Tell me which one of these "ideals" says that "unselfish deeds" are contrary to the "beliefs" of atheism.
Why don't you just go ahead and list all the "ideals" of atheism that you know? Because, you know, as an atheist, I seem to have not been breifed on our "ideals". Why don't you bring me up to speed?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2004 : 00:55:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Wherein did you gain the knowledge of my life that you presume to know all my actions and deeds and beliefs concerning such things?
All? I said nothing about "all" your actions or beliefs. In fact, I said that you seem to not give a damn, and that is precisely the way it appears to me. For example, you ignore Lot's horrendous deed in favor of his faith.quote:
Ever heard the saying "judge not, that you be not judged?" While we talk of ideas I am not trying to place personal judgments on people. Judging ideas is not the same as people.
This is non-Biblical garbage. Where does the Bible say that "judge not, lest ye be judged" refers only to people, and not to ideas? It's always seemed to me to be an injuction to all Christians to not judge anyone or anything. In other words, condemning gayness, atheism, Jewishness, etc. is just as bad an idea as condemning gays, atheists and Jews (etc.).quote:
All people are flawed, but ideas can be discussed without condemning people personally in the process.
Apparently not. There are quite a few disagreements with Christianity in this thread which you appear to have taken as personal affronts. So, you should start living your own advice before you begin faulting others for not doing so, hypocrite.quote:
As I tried to point out in another reply, their is sin within Christian and unbeliever. No one is immune, only one is attempting to obey God while the other is not.
If God does not exist, what does it matter?quote:
Then there are many in between who are still deciding and confused and all are in between at times in their life.
Irrelevant.quote:
And then there is hypocrisy which plagues us all at times, saying one thing while doing another.
As you demonstrate in this post.quote:
I am judging all atheism, to be sure, but not atheists. I am not condemning anyone purposely.
And people who suggest failures with Christianity aren't faulting you personally, either.quote:
I'm discussing these matters in this thread to try to show another side that is misunderstood so frequently about God; His side of JUDGE. We can never stand in those shoes, though we frequently try, we fail, not understanding all the circumstance, right and wrong, correct theology, nor people.
I've never tried to stand in God's shoes. When I decide something is right or wrong, I do so based upon my own knowledge, and not some book's say-so.quote:
We think we know so much, yet we are like insects in our intellect compared to God, not to mention our wisdom, discernment, and love. Therefore, we can discuss ideas and judge them by whatever means we have, howbeit, limited, and we must, but judging or condemning individuals is not something man can do...
Baloney. I know hypocrisy when I see it.quote:
...except in the case of whether they committed a crime or some wrong civil action according to our written laws.
So you're saying that the discussion of ethics and morality is impermissible. Very good, that takes care of gay marriage. Why don't you explain this to the majority of American Christians? It'd help out a lot.quote:
Therein we must judge between obeying and disobeying the law to keep order in society and redress grievances.
This is so completely impossible to follow that I must ask you several direct questions, and I suggest you actually answer them (otherwise, you will appear to be judging them a waste of your time - in fact, you should be addressing every point anyone brings up in this thread):- Have you ever expressed disappointment if one of your children brought home a low grade from school?
- Have you ever congratulated a friend for meeting one of their personal goals?
- Have you ever been frustrated by your own inability to accomplish an easy task, even temporarily?
- Have you ever experienced a feeling of accomplishment due to fulfilling one of your own goals?
- Do you expect anyone in your household to do any chores?
quote:
Wherefore, you can see hypocrisy or error in your "brother", but should never suppose you know their heart or motivations of their complete life so that you can write them off as "worthless human debris".
Who wrote anyone else off, here? Apparently, you can't understand that the effort I put into this thread is the result of a desire that one more person see Christian mores for what they are: impossible to follow with any degree of integrity.quote:
Writing people off, or condemning them is against Christian doctrine, but practiced by so many professors that it is certainly one of the most misunderstood of all commands and it goes totally contrary to mercy.
And yet, by condemning all of "atheism," you appear to be writing off every single atheist. Hypocrite.
Just look at your previous post: I know it's already been pointed out numerous times, but the idea that atheism is the same as egotism is simply wrong. You're making the claim that every atheist is incapable of feeling empathy, but where is it written in the Bible that empathy is possessed only by those with faith in God?
You are suggesting that atheists should be sociopaths, but it simply isn't true. You're suggesting that atheists shouldn't give a damn about their own children or family, but that's not true eithe |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2004 : 00:57:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
While we talk of ideas I am not trying to place personal judgments on people.
Yet you pass judgement on ALL atheists. That's pathetic.
That you have the audacity to claim that anything I have done, that could be considered "good", is the act of your christian god, is offensive in the extreme. I don't dance around, as you seem to think, and shout "Look! I did good!". I could give a FUCK what others think of what I am and do. I do the things I have chosen to do in my life because I think they were the right things to do at the time. I'm excercising my free will....
... but wait, I see now. This is just your way of agreeing with my argument that if there is an omnipotent creator then we don't have free will! So then of course my good deeds are the intent and will of god, and I don't (nor do you) really have free will.
Well, you're half way there now. As soon as you realize that you DO have free will, you'll see that an omnipotent god cannot exist.
So... how about that list of "atheist ideals"? Or maybe just link a web reference to wherever you learned them from?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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