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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2001 : 12:17:37
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Antibiotics are useful for BACTERIAL diseases. They should never be prescribed for VIRAL diseases, such as colds or flu. Antibiotics have absolutely NO EFFECT upon VIRUSES, which are immune to antibiotics, but such misuse can cause bacteria to become immune to the antibiotics. It is beyond me that anybody at all is still prescribing antibiotics for viral diseases. Also, patients on antibiotics should continue to take the antibiotics until the prescription runs out so that they can be sure that the bacterial infection has been completely eliminated.
People who use a lot of anti-bacterial products produce organisms which are also immune to antibiotics, creating bacterial illnesses which cannot be cured because of bacterial immunity.
Physicians must know the dangers of carelessness in prescribing useless medicines such as antibiotics for colds and flu. I do not know how patients can procure such medications indiscriminately.
Sooner or later, all of us will be back where we were at the beginning of the 20th Century and without a cure for these once-curable diseases.
Ignorance, in the case of antibiotic misuse, is not bliss. We could all die from the public's ignorant misuse of these valuable drugs.
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2001 : 13:00:00 [Permalink]
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I've heard there's even controversy about the current crop of anti-bacterial household products currently on the market. I haven't followed it closely, since I don't use these products. They cost a bit more, and I was raised on the doctrine of lots and lots of hot soapy water.
It seems to me these companies are trying to start a bacteria hysteria. Isn't common sense, good housekeeping, and care with cross-contamination enough? Will some bacteria eventually become resistant to these products?
Lisa
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 15:34:25 [Permalink]
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Dr. Dean Edell has talked about this a bit. According to his experience, patients, whether or not they have bacterial infections or viral infections, don't feel satisfied until the doctor gives them something for their ills.
The procedures for actually determining which it is is a costly and time consuming process, I believe, and patients want to get in, get their drugs, and get out. This, coupled with lazy doctors who overbook their days in the rush for more and more money, are happy to comply.
The potential problem with anti-bacterial products is this:
Most of them say "Kills 99% of germs!". Well, that 1% that survives just happen to survive because they are the strongest! Our immune systems are helped out by the fact that the strongest bacteria not only are fought off by the immune system itself, but they also are made less effective because of all the other weaker bacteria.
Potentially scary stuff. I hope continued studies and achievements in medicine make this a non-issue.
This is a pretty good summary: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/deanfulltexttopics.cfm?id=44151
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 19:11:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
It seems to me these companies are trying to start a bacteria hysteria. Isn't common sense, good housekeeping, and care with cross-contamination enough? Will some bacteria eventually become resistant to these products?
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Lisa:
Simple soap and water was once all that was needed. However, some bacteria have already become resistent to these antibacterial products. Look at hospitals. They have become the worst places to visit when you are sick because of the antibiotic-resistant bacteria running rampant in hospitals due to all of the scrubbing with antibacterial agents throughout these places.
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quote:
Potentially scary stuff. I hope continued studies and achievements in medicine make this a non-issue.
(Tokyodreamer)
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Tokyodreamer:
I understand that Scientists have found methods of getting around single resistance to antibiotics with cocktails of several antibiotics or some similar method of attack. Of course, if nothing changes in the bahavior of doctors and patients, these will fall victim to such misuse of medicine, as well.
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Lisa, Tokyodreamer:
Great (your full posts, of course)! I was so afraid that I would get a torrent of abuse from people who had been misusing antibiotics for the wrong purposes and who would be attempting to defend such careless behavior.
The word just needs to get out. This will affect every person who is alive today. It has already affected a lot of lives.
My wonderful late husband at one time was able to be given penicilin for a serious bacterial infection. If he had misused antibiotics, penicillin would not have worked, and he would have died then, rather than much, much later from heart disease. This is the wonderful, intelligent, interesting guy that I really miss. However, I picked myself up and got active in areas (skepticism, astronomy, physics lectures, etc.) which I had not followed while I was married. While my husband was alive, I simply was not about to leave our wonderful 'place' to gallivant around with astronomers, skeptics, or with other equally-fascinating ne'er-do-wells...
ljbrs
OOPS! I almost forgot the smileys!
  
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe
Edited by - ljbrs on 09/08/2001 19:22:30 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 19:17:41 [Permalink]
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Oh, yes, have you recently tried to find ordinary products which are not labeled *anti-bacterial"? One has to read all of the fine print on the labels to find out whether the product is dangerous or not. It is quite a bother to be forced to scrutinize every product on the market this way. In my case, I have to get out my reading glasses to find out whether the product is safe to use.
ljbrs   
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2001 : 20:49:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ignorance, in the case of antibiotic misuse, is not bliss. We could all die from the public's ignorant misuse of these valuable drugs.
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe
I NEVER take a prescribed drug without 1st checking the PDR or some other reliable source.
I'm so angry! A few months ago I told my doctor about a pain I've been having, she wanted to give me anti-biotics. I exactly told her all the reasons I didn't want to take them. And tried to double check why she felt I might have an infection that's causig the pain. I didn't think so but didn't want to argue that point with her. She said she felt the pills would help. I reluctently took them. Since I haven't taken many in my life I thought even if she's wrong, maybe it wouldn't be too terrible.
Sure enough, after one whole month and a very strong doseage, not one thing changed as far as the pain. I did get a very bad itch though. DAMN it! BTW, I even called the office after a week and told them it's not working, but was told to keep taking them.
So you tell me, what else could I have done? I felt I had to go through the motions to get to the next step of finding where the pain is coming from. Had I not done what she said, I don't think she would have refered me to another specialist.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2001 : 16:40:26 [Permalink]
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Snake:
That is just awful. I would continue to take the antibiotic medication, because you do not want to make monster microbes by stopping too early. In such a case, the microbe becomes immune to the antibiotic and trouble ensues.
I am lucky. I have a great doctor and have had him for over 20 years. He is now the head of an internal medicine department in a large hospital system. I was lucky. He was originally assigned to me years ago. Great doctor! He puts me on medicine. I hesitate, but eventually I give in. He has always been right about prescribing medications, so far.
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2001 : 19:44:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake:
That is just awful. I would continue to take the antibiotic medication, because you do not want to make monster microbes by stopping too early. In such a case, the microbe becomes immune to the antibiotic and trouble ensues.
Thanks for the information. Yes I know there are some meds that one can not suddenly stop taking. That's why I called the office. This was a couple of months ago. But the good thing was, I did finally get the referral to a neurologist. LOL, now he wants me to take another kind of pill.
We are making some progress, at least I now know I'm NOT going to die of a brain tumor.
BTW, these doctors are from UCLA, a well known medical school here. I grew up not too far from that university and I don't happen to think it's all that great.
Why do I go to them you ask? All the other doctors I have been to already think I'm crazy! Or they are too expensive for me to continue treatment with them. I'm trying to give my new doctors the benifit of the doubt.
It's been my expierence that doctors, where ever they get their degree, don't know as much as they should.
Curing someone should be a collaborative affair between the patient and the doctor. Right now, not many doctors that I know of talk to people as equals.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2001 : 20:50:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Antibiotics are useful for BACTERIAL diseases. They should never be prescribed for VIRAL diseases, such as colds or flu. Antibiotics have absolutely NO EFFECT upon VIRUSES, which are immune to antibiotics, but such misuse can cause bacteria to become immune to the antibiotics. It is beyond me that anybody at all is still prescribing antibiotics for viral diseases. Also, patients on antibiotics should continue to take the antibiotics until the prescription runs out so that they can be sure that the bacterial infection has been completely eliminated.
People who use a lot of anti-bacterial products produce organisms which are also immune to antibiotics, creating bacterial illnesses which cannot be cured because of bacterial immunity.
Physicians must know the dangers of carelessness in prescribing useless medicines such as antibiotics for colds and flu. I do not know how patients can procure such medications indiscriminately.
Sooner or later, all of us will be back where we were at the beginning of the 20th Century and without a cure for these once-curable diseases.
Ignorance, in the case of antibiotic misuse, is not bliss. We could all die from the public's ignorant misuse of these valuable drugs.
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe
When I first read of this recent concern, I recalled that as a teen (in the mid 70's) I was prescribed a gram per day (2*500 mg) of tetracycline for acne by a dermatologist, along with many other youth in my town... it worked great! Yet in light of this issue as brought to the attention of the public and medical community, I doubt this is still done.
Ron White |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2001 : 21:51:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
I live in San Diego, and a worrisome thing along those lines is that whereas on this side of the border, there's alot of awareness of the issue of antibiotic overuse potentially breeding "superbugs," a few miles away, in Tiajuana (and the rest of Mexico) antibiotics are cheaply available over-the-counter and are used casually. I heard or read somewhere that one particularly nasty case of antibiotic resistant infection ocurred in close proximity to a major New York City hospital (I think it was that "flesh-eating" stuff?) and it was speculated that this was not coincidence... it probably bred in the sewage with high concentrations of bugs and antibiotics, etc. from across the street.
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Ron White |
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Kaptain K
New Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2001 : 00:39:02 [Permalink]
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First of all, a hearty AMEN to all you've said.
Not only are bactericides popping up in soaps, "anti-bacterial" wipes, etc (Would you believe "anti-bacterial" countertops?), they are added by the ton to poultry and livestock feed!!
When I was just a kid (decades ago) my father (a physician) warned me to stay out of hospitals because that's where the germs are.
People expect doctors to give them something when they are ill. Explanations of the ineffectiveness of antibiotics on viral infections. If a doctor refuses to prescribe an antibiotic for a viral infection (as he/she should), people will shop around 'til they find one that will.
Ten dollar word for the day - Iatrogenic: A disease acquired in a hospital.
KK
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2001 : 14:21:50 [Permalink]
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Physicians know what they are doing, there is a cost effective choice that has been made, they have decided to prescribe antibiotics as placebos. To function along with the smell of the office, the white smock and the stethoscope that never gets washed.
After all they are allowing the weak to reproduce, sort of anti-Darwinian, and function as a host for more virulent forms of disease. I would be surprised if we don't have a repeat of the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic, death toll ~25million world wide, 850,000 U.S.
It all started on the morning of March 11, 1918 at Camp Funston, Kansas and within seven days, every state in the Union had been infected and spread worldwide quickly. Eighteen months after the disease appeared, the flu bug vanished and has never shown up again.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2001 : 18:48:17 [Permalink]
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An influenza pandemic is scarier than I want to comtemplate.
Often when I (and most others) say "I have the flu", what they have is a really bad cold. Get the real thing once, and there's no question.
Back in the 90's I was stationed at Ramstein AB, Germany. Once a year we all dutifully line up for our flu vaccine. One year, the CDC sent the wrong vaccine. The strain we were innoculated against never showed up. When a different strain of the virus did hit, it just about shut the whole base down. Luckily, this is a population that is already in good health and has access to medical care. Base officials took quick action to limit contact. (Close schools, limit hours at commissary, shut offices/workcenters). No one died, but a few did need hospitalization.
Imagine something like that hitting a large population center.
Lisa
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2001 : 05:23:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
An influenza pandemic is scarier than I want to comtemplate.
quote:
Once a year we all dutifully line up for our flu vaccine.
I saw another news story last night about those idiot people who claim that vaccines cause children to get brain damage, autism, etc., and are telling people not to get their kids vaccinated.
With all the celebrites who like to have pet social projects (and don't seem to be capable of intelligent thought) climbing aboard, telling ignorant talk show audiences and testifying before (a mostly ignorant) congress about the "horrors" of vaccination, we may all need to start contemplating it, sooner than anyone would like.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 19:47:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
An influenza pandemic is scarier than I want to comtemplate.
quote:
Once a year we all dutifully line up for our flu vaccine.
I saw another news story last night about those idiot people who claim that vaccines cause children to get brain damage, autism, etc., and are telling people not to get their kids vaccinated.
With all the celebrites who like to have pet social projects (and don't seem to be capable of intelligent thought) climbing aboard, telling ignorant talk show audiences and testifying before (a mostly ignorant) congress about the "horrors" of vaccination, we may all need to start contemplating it, sooner than anyone would like.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane...
What are you worried about?
If they want to outlaw abortion then there has to be another way of population control. Mass disease would be good, then!
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2001 : 20:34:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
there has to be another way of population control. Mass disease would be good, then!
Since one can never tell when you're actually joking most of the time ( ), I'll just say that (please correct me if I'm wrong) polio doesn't result in death, just painful crippling.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane... |
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