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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2005 : 10:57:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html
This link addresses faith healing, which no one here is advocating, and which Rubicon95 specifically excluded (by saying "(not intercessory)") from his statement.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:06:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Superstition is not a positive, or even neutral thing. It is a detriment to our good mental health.
Well, superstition may not be rational but who says it doesn't serve as an effective defense mechanism when dealing with the complexities of life? Every culture has its superstitions. Why is that? I know plenty of people who are very well adjusted and have beliefs that are not evidence based. Not evidence that I would accept anyway. I believe that you have made a rash generalization that can't be supported.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:16:54 [Permalink]
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| Well, I think you might consider that you're the one making a rash conclusion. Everyone has fallen down. Does that mean that we should encourage falling down as "an effective defense mechanism?" |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 01/19/2005 11:20:26 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:18:55 [Permalink]
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His first (poorly supported) statement is that individual prayer has a positive effect on the healing process.
quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html
This link addresses faith healing, which no one here is advocating, and which Rubicon95 specifically excluded (by saying "(not intercessory)") from his statement.
[/quote] |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 01/19/2005 11:19:28 |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:28:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, I think you might consider that you're the one making a rash conclusion. Everyone has fallen down. Does that mean that we should encourage falling down as "an effective defense mechanism?"
At least you didn't say, "If all your friends jumped off a bridge...?"
I hate that one.  |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:37:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Well, I think you might consider that you're the one making a rash conclusion. Everyone has fallen down. Does that mean that we should encourage falling down as "an effective defense mechanism?"
Since falling down might hurt and often does, but going to church or throwing salt over your shoulder rarely physically harms the person doing that, I think your analogy is false.
Wendy managed to say that with so many less words... LOL
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:40:01 [Permalink]
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I'm glad you said "physically" harm, because we are talking about psychological harm.
But now that I think of it, are you saying that religion causes no physical harm? That is a pretty rash statement as well. I think there are plenty of cases of that, right up to the guy that follows criminals like George Bush because of "God and country." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:41:30 [Permalink]
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Your link is not a study. It is a commentary on "Faith Healers". You know laying of hands and behold you are healed.
My Mayo Clinic link didn't open to the post but to the home page. I had posted that previously.
The title is "Intercessory Prayer and Cardiovascular Disease Progression in a Coronary Care Unit Population: A Randomized Controlled Trial" by Dr. Stephen L Kopecky. You may have seen a reference to him in other Skeptical sites or Atheist sites. His study is touted to disprove the effects of prayer. However, the results stated on the trial was there was no perceptible change with intercessary prayer but meditative prayer did have a measurable effect.
Here's commentary by the Mayo Clinic.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2001-rst/921.html
Hey how bout this one
http://dukemednews.duke.edu/gallery/detail.php?id=355
Koenig was one of the guys in the Mayo Study.
Your arguement was that "Superstition is not a positive, or even neutral thing. It is a detriment to our good mental health." You haven't proved it. You just sent me to a link that had a commentary by a retired psychiatrist and consumer advocate. Sorry that doesn't cut it with me. I don't want someone's opinion. I want a study.
You've made a broad statement that is difficult to defend. Why not refine it down to faith healers, aura manipulators, Reiki, crystals...etc. That seems to be what you are driving at.
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:43:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
His first (poorly supported) statement is that individual prayer has a positive effect on the healing process.
His (Rubicon95's) first link (which I doubt you read) did not work for me, but rather took me to the home page of a Mayo Clinic site. As far as I know the Mayo Clinic enjoys a good reputation. After searching I found the article he may have intended here. Below is an excerpt:
quote:
A recent issue of the Mayo Clinic Proceedings included 2 articles on the relationship between religion and health. Aviles et al1 reported that intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit. Mueller et al,2 however, noted that most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life and that addressing the spiritual needs of the patient may enhance recovery from illness.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:46:08 [Permalink]
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"most studies have shown involvement" is not a scientific study published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.
The article and links and web site that I posted shows facts, not opinion or fluff articles that you posted. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:52:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
But now that I think of it, are you saying that religion causes no physical harm? That is a pretty rash statement as well. I think there are plenty of cases of that, right up to the guy that follows criminals like George Bush because of "God and country."
Oh please. You know perfectly well what were debating here. Why not bring up the Inquisition or the Crusades while you're at it? Then, I can then bring up Stalin who was an atheist, if memory serves. And we can completely derail this thread… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 11:55:25 [Permalink]
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Wendy,
That wasn't the link, but I liked it. My link was the actual study. Graphs, criteria, pro's and con's of the study. This study did also point out it's short comings as well. I used in on the Benny Hinn (lysol! lysol!) thread.
Gorgo
Mayo is peer-reviewed.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 12:05:17 [Permalink]
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My posting of the other web site was to rebut your idea that prayer is a miracle cure, nothing else.
No, I have not done any scientific studies that superstition is not a positive, etc. That is my opinion based on observation. Ask someone who believes in such things some questions, and you'll come up with the same answers. Why do you believe in an afterlife? "Because this can't be all that there is." In other words, reality (their life) is not a good thing. It's about their self-worth. Why do you believe in god? "God gives meaning (worth) to (my) life." Better mental health would allow them to realize that worth is something that is irrelevant. There is nothing that gives or takes away self-worth or self-esteem. If you have to believe in self-worth, why not simply decide that you have it because you want to have it instead of trying to prove that you don't have it by creating fantasies? That seems harmless, but we see the world through the filter of these kinds of beliefs and act as though we don't have worth. Again, witness the fact that people actually voted for a known mass murder for the "highest" office of the land.
quote:
Your arguement was that "Superstition is not a positive, or even neutral thing. It is a detriment to our good mental health." You haven't proved it. You just sent me to a link that had a commentary by a retired psychiatrist and consumer advocate. Sorry that doesn't cut it with me. I don't want someone's opinion. I want a study.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2005 : 12:08:52 [Permalink]
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Your Mayo article shows that intercessory prayer has no effect. It offers no authoritative statements which would support the idea that religion has a positive or negative effect on anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Your link is not a study. It is a commentary on "Faith Healers". You know laying of hands and behold you are healed.
My Mayo Clinic link didn't open to the post but to the home page. I had posted that previously.
The title is "Intercessory Prayer and Cardiovascular Disease Progression in a Coronary Care Unit Population: A Randomized Controlled Trial" by Dr. Stephen L Kopecky. You may have seen a reference to him in other Skeptical sites or Atheist sites. His study is touted to disprove the effects of prayer. However, the results stated on the trial was there was no perceptible change with intercessary prayer but meditative prayer did have a measurable effect.
Here's commentary by the Mayo Clinic.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2001-rst/921.html
Hey how bout this one
http://dukemednews.duke.edu/gallery/detail.php?id=355
Koenig was one of the guys in the Mayo Study.
Your arguement was that "Superstition is not a positive, or even neutral thing. It is a detriment to our good mental health." You haven't proved it. You just sent me to a link that had a commentary by a retired psychiatrist and consumer advocate. Sorry that doesn't cut it with me. I don't want someone's opinion. I want a study.
You've made a broad statement that is difficult to defend. Why not refine it down to faith healers, aura manipulators, Reiki, crystals...etc. That seems to be what you are driving at.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 01/19/2005 12:10:26 |
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Topic Locked
