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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
 Posted - 09/19/2001 : 05:48:19 [Permalink]
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I heard yesterday that the Administration apologised for using that word (crusade)in the context of the upcoming military action. This is the problem with having political leaders who think too much in terms of religion. The thought of ~1 Billion Muslims believing that we were engaging in a war of extermination against them was not reassuring.
Greg.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2001 : 08:58:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, guess i don't completely understand the 'offense,' Trish, but thanks for trying to impart some insight into it. Having a vague and ambiguous belief system of my own, hasn't prevented me from making sincere oaths to defend, to tell the truth, and to be impartial, while knowing the use of the term "God," was different than my own conception, that was included in these oaths.
Perhaps am guilty of insensibility to the subject, if so, do regret it. And for the record, did find Dubya's appeal to his religious right, political power base, uh, inappropriate. Just not enough to exclude myself from joining in a collective moment of mourning for our victims of the attacks. Just don't accept Dubya, Farwell, Robertson and their like, as the true spokesman for Christianity, anymore than accepting ol' Ben Slami as the true spokesman for Islam. And trust you won't elevate them to that status as well.
Is there some kind of organization of atheists, dunno? If so, perhaps that would be a way to collectively join the nation in mourning the victims, just a thought. Unity is the most important aspect of facing this moment in history IMO, and my own self-identity is now more one of being an American. Don't think it is required to compromise one's own belief system, to identify as being an American, actually the opposite is true. Doubt you feel all that much differently as well. United we stand,...
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
Nubi, the oath I swore was the oath I took the day I joined the Marine Corps. It's the same oath everyone entering into military service takes. This has nothing to do with a religious/non-religious viewpoint. Only to do with being in the military.
There is a reason for the separation of religion and state. Consider the history of the period. First, you have many migrating here to escape religious persecution. You've spent the last four hundred years under the watchful eye of the Inquisition. Second, you've those who don't wish to be forced to any particular view - including those of the fleeing religious sects.
Now, with so many religious sects in this new country and so many differing sets of dogma based on the same book - how do you pick one sect over the other? Easy answer - you don't - make the government nonreligious. Don't let the government dictate what the populace should consider it's religion and don't let religion control the government. Easy enough - write it in the constitution.
Now we are hearing from many factions how this is a xian government founded on xian values. Um, where would they get this idea?
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 18:29:11 [Permalink]
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The people who did this terrible act were exceedingly religious. In fact, some of their prophets, et al., were some of the same ones to which Christians and Jewish believers pray. The killers believed they would be going to their heaven for these terrible attrocities.
Atheists, agnostics, non-believers, et al., do not have a nasty history in their background. They do not commit such heinous crimes.
So, next time you put down the non-believers, make certain that you read the history of your beliefs. The histories are simply attrocious. At least, my beliefs have no nastiness in their background. I, personally, do not mind the beliefs of others, just so long as they respect my right to believe. George Bush does not respect non-believers. I suppose he respects the believers who created the Day of Terror. They were all believers, and had some of the same prophets, too.
I do not mind your having beliefs. What I do mind is your misinterpretation of my beliefs.
Incidentally, some of my ancestors helped to write the Bill of Rights in the Constitution (and the Constitution, as well). I do not like to see the First Amendment trampled by anti-American fiends.
ljbrs  
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2001 : 22:47:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
And another about the "Nonreligious grieve without prayer":
http://detnews.com/2001/religion/0109/22/c01-299041.htm
This was beautiful, and I needed to see it. I've been very upset for several days.
Someone wrote to our local newspaper "after this, where was the ACLU and the Atheists"? The fact that the writer clumped both together shows a lot. He goes on to say how we're all so uncaring. He indicates we probably don't care about the lives lost.
The writer is a former co-worker of mine. He knows of my beliefs (actually lack thereof), yet asked me if he could sing the National Anthem at my retirement ceremony. He did a pretty good job.
What shall I say to him when I see him?
Zack, I'll tell you what the Atheists were doing. We stared in disbelief at what was happening. We were angry. We grieve. We donated blood, and we opened our chequebooks. We cried.
While the tears are still wet on our faces, we want revenge. Not against an entire country, where the majority of the citizens are oppressed, downtrodden and sick. But against the brain diseased bastards who planned this.
How dare someone suggest that because I'm atheist I have no feelings! The way I see it, Zack denies that I am human. Sure, he looks toward a nebulous, mythological, non-existant being for guideance, yet I'm the one that's bringing down this impotent little fairy-story godling's wrath down on us all.
Terrorists are a cancer upon society. Prayer won't make them go away. Excise them as you would a bit of diseased tissue.
Sorry for the rant, it's been a bad couple of days.
Lisa
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 03:44:14 [Permalink]
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Lisa,
I had to explain to someone that what makes this so terrible for atheists in part is that 6453 (last I heard) are dead. Without a belief system these people do not live on except in the imperfect memories of their friends and family. So, for atheists, instead of 6453 souls going to heaven there are instead 6453 people just gone.
And tonight, a gentleman told me he agreed with Falwell, for different reasons. But I guess I'm amoralistic and I caused the WTC to be brought down. If I hadn't laughed at him I would have been screaming mad. Blew my night.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 19:29:30 [Permalink]
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Thanks, Randy, for those articles...I too thought the second was well-presented and pertinent for all to read.
Lisa: I'd like to see that article (or is it a letter to the editor?) so that I can respond to him. Is it available online?
What kind of lame-brained question is "after this, where was the ACLU and the Atheists?" ???
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 20:37:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
And tonight, a gentleman told me he agreed with Falwell, for different reasons. But I guess I'm amoralistic and I caused the WTC to be brought down. If I hadn't laughed at him I would have been screaming mad. Blew my night.
Forgive me for being blunt, but why didn't you punch his damn lights out? He certainly deserves it.
quote:
"after this, where was the ACLU and the Atheists"?
As everyone else was, staring at the TV in horror and shock as this all happened. Where else?
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 21:05:21 [Permalink]
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i admit it, its all my fault. god is punishing america because i don't believe he exists. even worse, i believe in evolution, i drink, i have sex, i take drugs and i don't feel the least bit guilty.
comrade billyboy |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 21:20:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Lisa: I'd like to see that article (or is it a letter to the editor?) so that I can respond to him. Is it available online?
Wasn't easy, but I found it. http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2001/September/18-816-opin02.txt
I'm so pissed I can't even write a coherent answer to the guy. You know he sat at the desk right next to mine? I trained the SOB. This is the same guy who volunteered to sing the Star Spangled Banner at my retirement ceremony. And now I find what he really thought the whole time.
I guess his form of "Christian Love" is this: love and tolerate only those who think exactly the same way he does.
Lisa
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 22:29:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
I guess his form of "Christian Love" is this: love and tolerate only those who think exactly the same way he does.
Then he must be one lonely SOB. Ain't no one else in the world who thinks exactly like him.
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2001 : 22:53:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Then he must be one lonely SOB. Ain't no one else in the world who thinks exactly like him.
He's got a wife who stays home, cooks, cleans, and makes babies. I think they're up to about four. Actually, I like his wife a lot. When she knew we were on a hectic pace, she'd bring all of us lunch. She hand-makes her tortilla bread, and bakes the tortillas in corn husks. Mmmmm.
If I'd known at the time he would write something like that....Okay, I still would have crocheted that baby blanket for his last kid. (I'll pause here while the entire board engages in a collective gasp)
But I would have taken it directly to the hospital and given it to his wife, not given it to him to take home.
Lisa
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2001 : 03:40:00 [Permalink]
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Timely and appropriate articles, Randy, thanks.
Trishquote:
Nubi, the oath I swore was the oath I took the day I joined the Marine Corps. It's the same oath everyone entering into military service takes. This has nothing to do with a religious/non-religious viewpoint. Only to do with being in the military.
Yes, i know, took that oath quite some years ago, and think it ended with "So help me God." Have they changed it, now? As to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, you're preaching to the choir, here. 
ljbrs !?!
"The people who did this terrible act were exceedingly religious."
Just flatly disagree with you, those people were fanatics, who perverted their own religion, in order to be able to commit such acts.
"Atheists, agnostics, non-believers, et al., do not have a nasty history in their background. They do not commit such heinous crimes."
Last me checked, Stalin was an atheist, who had quite a bit of blood on his hands. Think there might be one or two, more heinous atheists in human history?
"So, next time you put down the non-believers, make certain that you read the history of your beliefs. The histories are simply attrocious."
Don't think me put any "non-believers" down, just said the posters here, it seemed to me, had a chip on their shoulders. And where might me "read the history" of my beliefs, ljbrs? Know a "scienitific mind" wouldn't make assumptions without some facts to base them on. 
"I do not mind your having beliefs. What I do mind is your misinterpretation of my beliefs." SIC! Right.
And just a sidebar, if you believe, that there is right and wrong, you do have a "belief system."
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2001 : 07:51:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Forgive me for being blunt, but why didn't you punch his damn lights out? He certainly deserves it.
This is one poor deluded individual, besides it was a public restraunt. You see, he believes every conspiracy theory out there, from Tesla to not trusting banks (he buys old gold coins to save his money) to the cops really do have quotas so no matter what they tell you.... (My brother is a cop - quess he's a liar too.) Besides he's probably 20+ years older than I, not really fair of me.
quote:
Yes, i know, took that oath quite some years ago, and think it ended with "So help me God." Have they changed it, now? As to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, you're preaching to the choir, here.
Um, if your of a non-belief you can leave that off, (i.e., not repeat it).
quote:
Don't think me put any "non-believers" down, just said the posters here, it seemed to me, had a chip on their shoulders. And where might me "read the history" of my beliefs, ljbrs? Know a "scienitific mind" wouldn't make assumptions without some facts to base them on.
Generally, in the xian history there are many atrocities committed in the name of god. As to Stalin, well meglomaniacs are a different manner of individual.
quote:
And just a sidebar, if you believe, that there is right and wrong, you do have a "belief system."
Only insofar as the *accepted norms* of society. Killing is wrong if society considers it as such. That is a learned set of morals/ethics.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Edited by - Trish on 09/28/2001 07:54:50 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2001 : 08:57:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
i admit it, its all my fault. god is punishing america because i don't believe he exists. even worse, i believe in evolution, i drink, i have sex, i take drugs and i don't feel the least bit guilty.
comrade billyboy
I must also be at fault. After all, I'm a Pagan.
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