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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2005 : 20:17:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
My proposition of decaying consciousness, of a vast complex system breaking down.... being able to be picked up by a living conscious person and then replayed, as a definition of a ghost is not that far fetched....
Not that farfetched?
Storm, you should give some real consideration to going back to school and obtaining a science degree. I reccomend physics.
I have said it before, and I guess I need to say it again. You'll never be considered anything but a crackpot with ideas like the ones you have unless you can speak with some authority about the nature of the subject you are studying. Seek a graduate degree in a field that deals with energy. How can you devise an expiriment to test for some previously undocumented type of energy unless you know about the well documented ones?
Your continued persitance in suggesting that the human body somehow produces "energy" of some undocumented type is, at this moment, nothing more than fantasy supported only by your own wishfull thinking.
I know you will probably get angry at reading my reply here, but I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or provoke you. But you have to realize that what you are suggesting is far outside the bounds of what we know already, and directly contradicts several well known principles.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 09:01:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dudequote:
But you have to realize that what you are suggesting is far outside the bounds of what we know already, and directly contradicts several well known principles.
Out of bounds... Science constantly changes, hypothesis come and go.... they get revised.... in fact science demands that it does....
Observations (phenomenon).....Hypothesize(what I am proposing} Predict....Upon the death of consciousness... upon the return to the Atmosphere,Universe,Earth, pieces of this energy get trapped, recorded... then replayed by the living... If we are such a vast and complex system... and we are... those who have been to chat regularly know what i mean by that...Why be so closed minded to the possibility of the discovery of something else about our existence, our death....
I am no more a crackpot to contemplate these possibillities than you are to disregard them.... or something like that... I think you can undestand what I am saying.... I think....
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
I know you will probably get angry at reading my reply here, but I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or provoke you.
Bullshit!!!! You have been well a @%*! to me from the beginning... Oh and I do go to scool, for Psychology.... I am no fool Dude....
Expirement.... Scientific research into this dispersed energyhypothesis has come a long way especially with the use of Scientific equipment than can measure different particles, magnetic, fields in the area of where hauntings are said to occur.... things take time...
long ago we only belived a certain amount of planets existed... with time and science and open mindness we were able to discover others...
but that fact is that while the scientific thought of the day was that only 5 existed.... the others existed as well... they were always there...Just not known... not discovered....
The sighns are there.... They always have been... Nothing Supernatural.... But ... Completely Natural... |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 09:27:31 [Permalink]
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Psychology is not physics, dear.
Energy is physics. Psychology isn't. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 09:56:56 [Permalink]
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Oh.. really.... so glad you clarified that for me.... dear...
But seriously is that all you got from my posts?
As you have all said to me numerous times... you must prove it to us....So I say to you now... prove it to me as to why this is an impossible idea.... you have told me to do the work... I do... and I can still see the possibilities... Explain the Pyschics to me...
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:26:48 [Permalink]
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We've done that already, but here I ago again.
Your idea isn't impossible, because nothing is impossible. The problem is, you're imagining a physical entity you call 'energy' that acts very much unlike what people who study physics call 'energy'.
Since no known energy acting in human bodies acts the way you're implying the ghost energy does, you basically invented a new type of energy out of thin air, undetectable by the current means, to justify something that is, in the least, very doubtful. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 13:02:31 [Permalink]
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Storm you asked to be taught physics on a forum - not likely. I can give you some idea of what energy is and why your use of the terms makes no sense.
Some types of energy are:
Potential
Kenetic
electro-magnetic
Binding energy in atoms.
These types can further be broken down such as:
Gravitational potential energy
Chemical potential Energy.
A short example.
Take a bowling ball and walk up a hill. You have just increased the potential energy* of the bowling ball (the higher the ball is the more potential energy it has). Now put the ball on the ground and it starts rolling down the hill. The potential energy is being converted to kenetic energy** (kenetic energy is essentially energy involved with motion). The ball 'pushes' past air molecules which it displaces and cause them to swirl (air friction). The air also heats up slightly (another form of KE). Aside - temperature is the measure of the average translational KE of the molecules of a substance - this can be used to bore people at cocktail parties. That is why heat flow is always from hot to cold - the rapidly vibrating molecules (hot) transfer their energy by making the slower vibrating molecules (cold) vibrate more energetically. The KE of the air molecules is transfered to other molecules by collisions. The translational (or vibrational KE) is also transfered to other molecules. The ball heats up the ground by friction, the KE of the ball transfers energy to the ground as heat and it disipates through the ground. The ball also heats up it is transfering its KE into Vibrational KE. The ball reaches the bottom of the hill and smacks into a brick wall. The smacking sound is actually pressure waves that eminate from the contact point of the ball and wall. Part of the the balls KE is converted to those pressure waves the rest of the KE is put into the the wall as vibrations and oscillations of the wall. Of course the wall is also heated.
The point is that the energy does not hang around. The sound or pressure waves don't just stay where they are. There is no way to store a sound wave.
The translational KE does not stay in one place. You know this - a cup of coffee does not stay hot for years.
There are ways to store energy-
Gasoline has a lot of potential chemical energy.
Batteries are stored electrical energy
Springs are stored potential energy.
But this storage of energy has nothing to do with some undefined made up energy type that can not be measured.
A human has heat energy - you are continually transfering that heat to the environment. After you die you continue to lose that heat until you cool to the ambient temperature.
The very weak electrical impulses in you nerves stop and the heat from them disipates.
The chemical potential energy of your body is utilized by bacteria.
There is no other energy, and even if there was it would not just hang around, it would dissipate.
Hope this helps, class dismissed.
* PE = Weight X Height ______________ Weight is a force = Mass X acceleration (gravity)
** KE = Mass X Velocity^2 |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 14:27:26 [Permalink]
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The energies in our brain are electrical and chemical. Electrical currents travel in the neurons, and chemical potential energies are released for information to be carried from one neuron end to another.
In order to support your assertion that someone can pick up psychic energy you have to show that psychic energies can affect electrical currents and/or chemical potential energies.
However, electromagnetic energies have been shown not to affect the brain in any significant manner.
Experiments with magnetic interference in the frontal lobes have caused people to perceive "mystical" experiences, but that effect is due to the disruption of normal brain activity.
The electric and magnetic signals used in these experiments was easily picked up by instruments.
And the only way to chemically affect the brain is to introduce "chemically altering substances" aka drugs of various kinds into your body.
But the effect is always system-wide, and can not be targeted to specific patterns of neurons.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 15:19:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Out of bounds...
That is what I've seen thus far.quote:
Science constantly changes, hypothesis come and go....
Yes. Good hypothesis evolves and become theories.
quote:
Observations (phenomenon).....
Yes...
quote:
Hypothesize(what I am proposing}
Yes...
quote:
Predict....
That hasn't been done yet. No scientifically based prediction has been made.
quote:
Upon the death of consciousness... upon the return to the Atmosphere,Universe,Earth, pieces of this energy get trapped, recorded... then replayed by the living...
This is not a prediction, it's just continued speculation of what you believe happens.
quote:
If we are such a vast and complex system... and we are... those who have been to chat regularly know what i mean by that...Why be so closed minded to the possibility of the discovery of something else about our existence, our death....
Just because we have a complex system does not mean that the system will be able to violate the natural laws. Dude has already said that the behaviour of the psychic energy violates several principles that applies to known kinds of energy.
quote:
Oh and I do go to scool, for Psychology....
Then you should be aware of the suggestability of the human mind, and how various cognotive abilities and the inherent flaws of them can affect our perception of events, and our memories it, and our interpretation of those memories.
It just occurred that psychology is a large field. What are you specializing in?
quote:
Expirement.... Scientific research into this dispersed energyhypothesis has come a long way especially with the use of Scientific equipment than can measure different particles, magnetic, fields in the area of where hauntings are said to occur.... things take time...
That's why I'm waiting for reports. Nothing I've seen yet has convinced me that ghosts are anything but mind-tricks by unexplained natural phenomena.
If experiments have indeed been conducted in a scientific manner with positive results, it should be published in peer-reviewed papers like "Nature".
And to tie back this quote: quote:
magnetic, fields in the area of where hauntings are said to occur
The existance of a magnetic field is evidence of a magnetic field. Both electrical and magnetic fields are found everywhere, and has no effect what-so-ever unless they are so strong they cause cancer and similar.
quote:
long ago we only belived a certain amount of planets existed...
Possibly true.
quote:
with time and science and open mindness we were able to discover others...
True.
quote:
but that fact is that while the scientific thought of the day was that only 5 existed....
Wrong.
Only five were known to exist, but no knowledge that was scientifically accepted ruled out the possibility of there being more.
quote:
the others existed as well... they were always there...Just not known... not discovered....
Correct, but this is a bad anology. The undiscovered planets behaved according to the same laws the known planets already did. You are proposing planets that are starting, stopping and flying loops in their orbits.
quote:
The sighns are there.... They always have been... Nothing Supernatural.... But ... Completely Natural...
I believe you say so because of your limited understanding of Natural, as in Laws of Nature. It's for that reason we insist on calling ghosts paranormal and not just "normal". |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 17:29:37 [Permalink]
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I definetly can see where you are all coming from...
You are right Dr. Mabuse I am still in the Hypothezing phase...
But that is o.k... I am learning more each day...
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Just because we have a complex system does not mean that the system will be able to violate the natural laws. Dude has already said that the behaviour of the psychic energy violates several principles that applies to known kinds of energy.
Who said it violates Natural Laws? What principles does it violate?
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Then you should be aware of the suggestability of the human mind, and how various cognotive abilities and the inherent flaws of them can affect our perception of events, and our memories it, and our interpretation of those memories.
It just occurred that psychology is a large field. What are you specializing in?
Of course I am Doc? but you cannot chalk it up to all that.. While there are many cases in which psychology and psychological issues are the cause for the phenomenon... There are still others that reamin anomolies... look back at the different websites I posred, the different journals I suggestedd.... Anomolies exist... I am just proposing a hypothesis...
My interest in Psychology is general, I wish to use it mainly to branch off into the field of Parapsychology... Although.. I was thinking about studies in Thantology... Beauty of On-line college...
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
The existance of a magnetic field is evidence of a magnetic field. Both electrical and magnetic fields are found everywhere, and has no effect what-so-ever unless they are so strong they cause cancer and similar.
Numerous times I have been on investigations and our electronic equipement fails... when we move away from the area in question it resumes....
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
your limited understanding of Natural, as in Laws of Nature
You might be right Doc... In certain ways... but in no way are my propositions out of bound or crackpotish....
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 17:43:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
You might be right Doc... In certain ways... but in no way are my propositions out of bound or crackpotish....
They are the very definition of a crackpot theory. |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 22:03:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Who said it violates Natural Laws? What principles does it violate?
Oh, the laws of thermodynamics, for just three.
And if you're going to propose an entirely new form of energy, you need to first demonstrate that it exists before any discussion about its behaviour can be entered. And you'll also need to show that it behaves in a coherent way.quote:
You might be right Doc... In certain ways... but in no way are my propositions out of bound or crackpotish....
This is simply denial. You haven't demonstrated that your ideas follow basic scientific principles. Just saying that they do doesn't demonstrate that they do, just like your previous denials that you were rude do not demonstrate that you were polite. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 15:52:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Then you should be aware of the suggestibility of the human mind, and how various cognitive abilities and the inherent flaws of them can affect our perception of events, and our memories it, and our interpretation of those memories.
It just occurred that psychology is a large field. What are you specialising in?
Of course I am Doc? but you cannot chalk it up to all that.. While there are many cases in which psychology and psychological issues are the cause for the phenomenon... There are still others that remain anomolies...
Yes, well consider this...
We start with the bulk of ghost phenomena. Then we start stripping away all those that are caused by substance abuse.
Then we strip away all those that have psychological and/or mental causes.
Then we strip away those that have very simple natural explanations, like creaking floor-boards.
The we strip away those that have not so simple, yet natural, explanations like St. Elmo's fire and such.
What we have left are a bunch of ghost sightings that most woo-woos claim are real ghosts. I realise Storm that you will not recognise all of these as real ghosts. We can continue to strip away some sightings:
Strip away those that are obvious (and less obvious) lies, and trickeries.
What have we left?
Sightings that have very complex natural explanations.
And finally:
Sightings that have no natural explanation we can find, and sightings that are real ghosts.
Just because we have not found any natural explanation for a sighting does not mean there isn't one. Saying that it must have been a ghost just because we have no other explanation it not right.
Such a statement is just as bad as a Christian fundie who demands that the Theory of Evolution should hold the answer to 'what's the meaning of life'.
quote:
Numerous times I have been on investigations and our electronic equipment fails... when we move away from the area in question it resumes....
If it happens every single time, then why not invite an electronics engineer the next time. He may be able to explain why the electronic equipment fails. There could be natural causes you haven't considered.
Like I've said, a strong magnetic field can induce mystical experiences. It will also affect compass, and possibly electrical equipment. Old house wiring may faulty, and wires may be drawn in such a way to create magnetic fields.
Just as an example, initially cars with the battery in the trunk, like the new Volvo V90 and Audi A6 (and possibly other) had electrical wiring that produced intense magnetic fields because the wiring wasn't done right.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 09:48:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posyed by Dave
quote:
And if you're going to propose an entirely new form of energy, you need to first demonstrate that it exists before any discussion about its behaviour can be entered
I would not say I was promelgating a New form of energy.... Just one not yet discovered....
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
This is simply denial. You haven't demonstrated that your ideas follow basic scientific principles. Just saying that they do doesn't demonstrate that they do, just like your previous denials that you were rude do not demonstrate that you were polite.
I am not the one in Denial....
Rude... me.. never.... not Me...
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
We start with the bulk of ghost phenomena. Then we start stripping away all those that are caused by substance abuse.
Yes....
quote:
Then we strip away all those that have psychological and/or mental causes.
Yes....
quote:
Then we strip away those that have very simple natural explanations, like creaking floor-boards.
Yes....
quote:
The we strip away those that have not so simple, yet natural, explanations like St. Elmo's fire and such.
Yes...
quote:
Just because we have not found any natural explanation for a sighting does not mean there isn't one. Saying that it must have been a ghost just because we have no other explanation it not right.
Such a statement is just as bad as a Christian fundie who demands that the Theory of Evolution should hold the answer to 'what's the meaning of life'.
We do not know the awnsers to some of those anomolies out there.... but in discussing the possibilities brings us closer to trying to awnser them....
Pleas Doc... Don't compare me to Christian Fundies....
I believe most phenomenon are natural....
Why is it so hard to believe that Consciousness, the complexity of our mind, thoughts, actions, in life take longer to break down than other organisms, thereby producing what I have labeled ghostly phenomenon?
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 10:14:53 [Permalink]
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| See, that's the big point for me. I don't take things on belief alone. I've no reason to believe that consciousness includes some sort of unknown form of energy that somehow lingers to some place for some obscure reason. There's no concrete, testable evidence for it, either, so... until you can prove that, I'll doubt it. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 10:37:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
I believe most phenomenon are natural....
As do we, but for different reasons.
quote:
Why is it so hard to believe that Consciousness, the complexity of our mind, thoughts, actions, in life take longer to break down than other organisms, thereby producing what I have labelled ghostly phenomenon?
Because consciousness is a function of the living working brain. So little is required to make it stop functioning. Just a sudden drop in blood-pressure is sufficient for rendering a person unconscious. Blunt force trauma easily renders the brain unconscious. Chemicals and mechanic effects have rendered consciousness altered permanently. So fragile is it.
Upon death the brain cease to function, as consciousness is a function of the working brain, it will also cease to exist. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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