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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 01/25/2005 : 19:41:06
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Ghost are the most common reported forms of paranormal experience{even though I really do not label them that)
To most people ghosts are the spirits of dead people. While this may be one explanation it certaintely does not encompass all ghostly phenomenon... but it is a start...
Scientific inquiry and research into ghosts began in the late 1800's with the Society for Psychical research.. The founding members Edmund Gurney, Fredrick Myers all respectable Gentlemen.. published there research in Phantasms of the Living Over the years Psychical researchers has gathered the information of vast amounts of cases ansd have come up with classifications of this phenomenon or of ghosts/apparitions..
- Crisis apparitions - The apparition or Ghost of a dead person in crisis that sends a mental image to a close relative. ie. Wife, parent or child
- Collective Apparitions - - those apparitions seen by more than one person simultaneously
- Purposeful Apparitions- apparitions that seem to convey a purpose or message to the living.
- Residual Apparitions - Psychic imprints of past lives/ events recorded onto the environment then played back by an individual whom we call a sensitive { what we are debating now}
- Postmortem Apparitions - The appearence of a angel, divine being or family members who have died, to those on their deathbed
- Doubles, Doppelganders, the apparition of a living person seen by another
These are the main classifications of ghostly phenomenon...
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Shacal
Skeptic Friend
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 20:03:38 [Permalink]
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My take:
Crisis apparitions- coincidence (1 in 6 billion chances happen once every day) or subconsious rememberance of a possible danger that a loved one may be in (Example: A woman remembers a strange van around her house when she left) or simply not true (misremembering what led them to check on a relative)
Collective Apparitions- Collective hallucination; a group of people seeing something mundane and mistaking it for something supernatural (Example: Virgin Mary on grilled cheese)
Purposeful Apparition- Similar to Postmortem
Residual Appartion- A person with an overactive imagination seeing things that aren't there but would be REALLY cool! (Example: ghosts in mansions whose "hauntedness" is heavily advertised, and attracts great tourism)
Postmortem Apparition- hallucination by grieving relative caused by emotional stress/irrational hope, and perhaps aggravated by a "medium". (example: John Edward's show)
Doubles, Dopplegangers- A combination of all of the above
In other words, there are non-supernatural, far more believable explanations for all of these. |
"The problem with communication is the illusion that we have accomplished it" |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 20:34:57 [Permalink]
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My take:
When you can present verifiable and repeatable evidence that clearly demonstrates "ghosts" to exist, I'll buy you a beer and apologize.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 02:28:45 [Permalink]
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So take it another step, Storm. How do you verify the conclusions you or others draw are correct interpretations of whatever it is that the person experiences?
There are some interesting anecdotal stories of persons receiving information from a deceased but none of the stories have really amounted to much in the way of verifiable evidence. If the phenomena of ghosts were as common as they seem to be, why is it so hard to obtain verifiable evidence? Houdini never appeared to his wife. So far, no one has read any messages only visible if you were floating in the room in the ERs or ICUs that would prove an out of body existence. If such a thing were happening, why is it so rare as to not yet have been documented with good evidence?
I love ghost stories. A few years ago my son and I went to our local 'haunted' Manressa Castle in Port Townsend. We stayed in the haunted tower room. There are two supposed haunted rooms. Both have diaries for guests to write in. The stories were great so I actually borrowed both books and xeroxed them.
Our light flickered but so do mine here at home so that is certainly easily explained. Late at night we did hear brief but very distinct foot steps overhead. The sounds were loud enough as to rule out an animal raccoon size or smaller. We had looked around the place before and the attic was locked. I really don't think anyone was up there. But what I do think is the sound we heard was really coming from some place else in the hotel and merely transferred so as to sound as if it were overhead.
So why should I think there had to be some mysterious explanation? Even if I had no idea what made the noise, that isn't reason to start thinking ghosts. I can't just make up something and then start believing that's what caused the sound. Well it could have been time travelers who changed their mind after they landed in a dark attic. Or maybe it was a giant insect that immediately disintegrated when it hit the floor. Perhaps the wood in the building is really a sentient being, still alive, and playing jokes on the hotel guests from time to time.
If I'm going to go with one of those stories, there has to be more than a noise. But sound transfer is a known phenomena and it could be replicated to prove it should I have wanted to try to test my idea. I wrote my scientific hypothesis in the diary for our room. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 08:23:24 [Permalink]
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My mother used to dream of my deceased grandmother quite often, and hear her voice giving advices.
My granny died when mom was 19. The whole family was then abandoned by my grandfather. Mother was left with a younger sister to take care of, a cousin who was left at her door almost dead, and a great-grandmother. They were all very poor. She lost even her house to an aunt.
I wouldn't expect any less from her mind. It's obvious she missed her mother a lot, and that she'd dream with her. The advices? Her own mind's solutions to her problems, embodied by a person of authority and great affection.
I see nothin' ghostly there. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 08:32:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Our light flickered but so do mine here at home so that is certainly easily explained. Late at night we did hear brief but very distinct foot steps overhead. The sounds were loud enough as to rule out an animal raccoon size or smaller. We had looked around the place before and the attic was locked. I really don't think anyone was up there. But what I do think is the sound we heard was really coming from some place else in the hotel and merely transferred so as to sound as if it were overhead.
Sure. You've probably thought of this, but it's also possible that since you rented a "haunted" room the staff, aiming to please, sent someone up to the attic with a key to walk around and give you the effect of ghostly footsteps.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 12:57:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Our light flickered but so do mine here at home so that is certainly easily explained. Late at night we did hear brief but very distinct foot steps overhead. The sounds were loud enough as to rule out an animal raccoon size or smaller. We had looked around the place before and the attic was locked. I really don't think anyone was up there. But what I do think is the sound we heard was really coming from some place else in the hotel and merely transferred so as to sound as if it were overhead.
Sure. You've probably thought of this, but it's also possible that since you rented a "haunted" room the staff, aiming to please, sent someone up to the attic with a key to walk around and give you the effect of ghostly footsteps.
Not in this case. But I'm sure many a hotel owner has used this trick to increase business. And, that would be my second choice well before 'ghost' came up on the list of possibilities. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/26/2005 12:58:55 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 18:54:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Shacal
quote:
So far, no one has read any messages only visible if you were floating in the room in the ERs or ICUs that would prove an out of body existence. If such a thing were happening, why is it so rare as to not yet have been documented with good evidence?
How could one know when one was going to die, to be there to read a message left on the top of a shelf in an ER?
These classifications are based on ancedotal evidence... Something here no one excepts as evidence... but it is a start... A start of a phenomenon that has existed for hundreds of years through all the different cultures of the world...
Now I am not here trying to get you to believe that ghosts are the conscious disembodied souls of the dearly departed... Not yet anyhow
but what I am propsoing and what researchers have propsed before is that ghosts or some ghosts might be pieces of energy left over from the living that is picked up by a sensitive and then replayed.. Nothing supernatural... but completely natural...
Originally posted by Shacal
quote:
Residual Appartion- A person with an overactive imagination seeing things that aren't there but would be REALLY cool! (Example: ghosts in mansions whose "hauntedness" is heavily advertised, and attracts great tourism)
I do not promote this at all.. How do we explain experiences where people did not know a place was haunted... How when questioned the person desciribes what was once the former occupant... How can one hallucinate a person who one never knew about or told about? Not all experience involve families and family members... Some involve complete strangers... |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 19:57:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
How could one know when one was going to die, to be there to read a message left on the top of a shelf in an ER?
No, one puts messages in all ERs on high shelves and then waits for people to come in and have an NDE. Such a person should be able to read the message in the room they were in, if they happen to "float up to the ceiling" as many report doing.quote:
but what I am propsoing and what researchers have propsed before is that ghosts or some ghosts might be pieces of energy left over from the living that is picked up by a sensitive and then replayed.. Nothing supernatural... but completely natural...
None of which matters unless you can define the word 'ghost' in relation to the 'phenomenon' you wish to demonstrate. You haven't, yet, and neither have the SPR. You can do all the classification you want to, it doesn't make a difference if what you're classifying isn't definable in the first place.
There are three main types of migglephartz:- pineal - those migglephartz which affect the pineal gland,
- supreme - migglephartz with extra cheese, and
- postmortem - migglephartz which appear to dying people, or to their families
Doesn't make any sense, does it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Shacal
Skeptic Friend
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 21:41:15 [Permalink]
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Um, Storm that first quote you attributed to me is not mine. 
quote:
I do not promote this at all.. How do we explain experiences where people did not know a place was haunted... How when questioned the person desciribes what was once the former occupant... How can one hallucinate a person who one never knew about or told about? Not all experience involve families and family members... Some involve complete strangers...
Refer me to a documenteed example of this and I will address it. |
"The problem with communication is the illusion that we have accomplished it" |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 16:02:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Doubles, Doppelganders, the apparition of a living person seen by another
I fail to see how this would be a ghost.
I actually met and conversed with girl who was a doppelganger to a another one I knew. I tell you, they were the spitting image of eachother, to the point it alost stopped my heart!
They were a few years apart, and live 1000km apart and knew nothing of eachother. The first time I saw her though, I thought I did see a ghost (figuratively anyway since I didn't/don't believe in ghosts). |
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 19:49:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Doubles, Doppelganders, the apparition of a living person seen by another
I fail to see how this would be a ghost.
I actually met and conversed with girl who was a doppelganger to a another one I knew. I tell you, they were the spitting image of eachother, to the point it alost stopped my heart!
They were a few years apart, and live 1000km apart and knew nothing of eachother. The first time I saw her though, I thought I did see a ghost (figuratively anyway since I didn't/don't believe in ghosts).
Never heard of a doppelgander until now but from your description I have a one word comment, genetics.
I'm sure I can occasionally see genetic facial traits in supposedly unrelated persons that have to represent ancestral ties at some point in the past.
From Anime:quote:
Doppelgangers: This is a special technique where you make a copy of yourself. It isnt real but a ghostly exact copy of yourself.
So are we taking a cartoon idea and giving it real world qualities here? When one sees a double, should we assume one made the other?
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/29/2005 19:55:16 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2005 : 22:50:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Check Wikipedia for more info on Doppelgänger, beskeptigal. The word didn't originate with anime.
Thanks, I shouldn't have been so quick on the conclusions there. |
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