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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend
60 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2005 : 08:09:09 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the benefit of the doubt Ricky. I wasn't changing the theory, just adding something I forgot to mention before to illustate why the diagram is much more than a counter, the original explanation still holds although Dave did raise some points which I had to agree with.
Yes, it is possible that I am interpreting it wrongly. I thought I saw something in the olympic rings which raised questions in my own mind. I saw a connection. I'm not dismissing it yet, I think there's something else there.
I would like to post more as soon as they're ready.
My intention is to find that lost world beyond existing prehistory and therefore not conflicting with existing scolarship. Hopefully my pictures and theories will at least form some entertainment over the coming year. This forum is excellent for having ideas put to the test. Many thanks. There is a story building.
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'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/ |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend
60 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 10:09:00 [Permalink]
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I have an idea based on what Dave said. He inspired me to look at it differently which is what I am now doing.
Give me a little time to get my thoughts of thoughts and facts together and then I'll post it.
Then you can dismiss it, accept it, contempate it or ignore it.
A fact isn't a fact until it has been thought about.
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'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/ |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 12:59:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
Dave, I can see your diagram now. Excellent !! To count the days in the Venus cycle this would be perfect. Did you create this one yourself ?
Thanks, yeah, I whipped it up in about 15 minutes in MS Paint, which is why the angles are a bit off (and why I didn't spend forever making tick marks around the outside edge).quote:
Taking another look at the olympic rings to add another perspective :
Each ring would also represent the relative postion of venus and the sun from the earth using the horizon as a frame of reference ?? So the ring represents the sun's postion. The joins represent the sun's position on the horizon and the sides of the rings the angle of venus's path to the horizon. Do you agree or disagree ??
Well, I disagree since when Venus is visible, it's always above the horizon (obviously). When it's a "morning star," it's above the horizon in the morning, and sets before the Sun does in the evening. And vice-versa for the "evening star" times. However, paths S and Q would, per this new ad hoc perspective of yours, have Venus below the horizon all the time, if I'm interpreting your description correctly.
That second image you provided, I have no clue as to how one would keep track of the Venus cycles with it. Do you know of an explanation? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 13:31:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
Chippewa, any ideas what the Audi symbol represents ?
I heard that Sabura cars symbol represents Venus passing through the pleiades. Sabura being Japanese for Pleiades.
You heard wrong. From the website Wendy linked too:
"Subaru was the first Japanese car company to use a name derived from its own language. It refers to a group of six stars - also known by its original Japanese name of mutsuraboshi - in the constellation of Taurus. We'd know them as Pleiades."
Oooo! The Pleiades. That means aliens, right? Actually Venus is not involved, but that would be a cool name for a car. "You drive a Saturn? "No. I drive a Venus." "Ooooo." The Japanese name is local in origin.
Originally posted by Wendy
I'm with Chippewa on this one. Here's a link to the History of Car Logos...Of course, the Audi symbol comes up one circle short. I blame the aliens.
Me too. I like Maserati's logo - its just wicked looking. I like Toyota's too - though it does resemble a sombrero. Maybe there's car-sombrero-Delphi-Pleiades connection?  |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Isaiah
Skeptic Friend
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 13:34:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
A fact isn't a fact until it has been thought about.
What? Please explain. |
For Real Things I Know - http://solomonj.blogspot.com
"My point is, that you cannot use lack of evidence for one possibility as proof for another." - Dude
“I would rather delude myself with comforting fantasies than face a cold reality” - Isaiah, altered from astropin |
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 08:14:55 [Permalink]
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Dave, I'm not sure whether the diagram of the dots and hand has any relation to venus. I noticed that the hand showed 5 synodic cycles (i.e. the fingers) and that including the seven dots that made the eight year cycle of venus to return to the exact same position in the sky. Here's a link to a site discussing Mayan Astronomy.
http://www.civilization.ca/civil/maya/mmc07eng.html
Taking a quote from this site :
quote:
With the aid of a forked stick, astronomer-priests used only the naked eye to take observations that allowed them to calculate the path of Venus and other celestial bodies. From the records of their observations they could calculate with precision events such as solar eclipses.
Maybe a stretched out hand could have been used also to determine the path of venus in a similar fashion.
I would like to ask you something.
If we assume, maybe a big assumption, that the stone found with the 5 olympic rings on it was a genuine find and not propaganda.
Then, also assume, again maybe a big assumption, that the rings had a direct relation to the pattern of Venus in the eight year cycle.
So, as you mentioned, your diagram would be far more useful and easier to think up than something as I proposed earlier. This I agree. But what if the rings were simply an image that was easy to remember and by observation you were able to determine exactly where venus was in it's 8 year cycle by mapping it to the diagram.
Let me explain, I found a connection. Just imagine the rings on their own without the stuff I put on there.
If it represented Venus relative to just the sun it would be impossible to determine which of the 5 synodic periods it was in. As each cycle is more or less the same. Do you agree ?
But if we used another object in the sky which would differ all the way through the cycle then we would be able to determine where venus was in it's cycle relative to this object.
It would have to be an object which was on the horizon to be able to use the same frame of reference.
I found that the Full moon rises at sunset and sets at sunrise. Is this true ?
So, if there is a relationship here, we have the following positions :
Venus is to the left of the sun in the morning, rising before the sun
Venus is to the right of the sun in the evening, setting just after the sun
full moon rises just after sunset.
full moon rises just before sunset.
full moon sets just after sunrise.
full moon sets just before sunrise.
Sunset and Full moonrise are opposite each other on the horizon.
Sunrise and Full moonset are opposite each other on the horizon.
The Full moonrise is to the left of the sunset.
The Full moonrise is to the right of the sunset.
The Full moonset is to the left of the sunrise.
The Full moonset is to the right of the sunrise.
Then, each circle represents venus moving round the sun. When we add the next circle we have a join representing the earth, i.e. the horizon. So each circle then represents one synodic period. The circles position relative to the next circle shows it's realtive position to the full moon.
I'm still thinking about it, just thought I would share this with you to see if 2 minds are better than one ?
I'm sure there is a pattern here because I believe it. But I am having difficulty visualising it, can anyone help ? Dave, the speed you drew that last diagram I thought you might shed some light on this ?
Isaiah, 'a fact isn't a fact until it has been thought about' means for me, that it maybe a fact but it still needs to be accepted which involves thought, questioning and decision. Facts again are relative to your beliefs. Many of us just accept facts without thought as a comparitive to this.
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'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/ |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 09:06:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
Dave, I'm not sure whether the diagram of the dots and hand has any relation to venus. I noticed that the hand showed 5 synodic cycles (i.e. the fingers)...
It also shows... five fingers.quote:
...and that including the seven dots that made the eight year cycle of venus to return to the exact same position in the sky.
And by the same reasoning, it could represent a group of five octopi.quote:
[Big snip here] I'm still thinking about it, just thought I would share this with you to see if 2 minds are better than one ?
The problem is that 584 days is about 19.78 full Moons. It comes close to cycling through 9 Venusian cycles, or 177.98 full Moons. Which means that in order to instantly know where Venus is in its eight-year cycle, using just the positions of Venus and the Moon relative to the Sun, you'd have to have a "map" which showed 45 Venus cycles, or 360 years.
A much better match is with 67 Venus cycles, or 1,324.998 months. But this would, of course, require a "map" showing 335 total Venus cycles, or 2,680 years. Can you can see the problem here?quote:
I'm sure there is a pattern here because I believe it.
And Einstein was sure that he could eliminate the randomness of quantum mechanics, but he never did. Believing in things doesn't make them true, because otherwise I'd be a freakin' billionaire. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 09:39:05 [Permalink]
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I was thinking more on the idea that the nearest full moon to the beginning or ending of a synodic cycle would help to identify the position in the 8 year cycle. But for this to be true there would have to be a relationship between Venus and the moon also.
Another thing which is impotant to think about from an observing point of view is that Venus goes retrograde about every 18 months and lasts about six weeks. This means that if the diagram was based on relative motions and positions it would also need to reflect this.
I agree with :
quote:
Believing in things doesn't make them true
However, if they are true, beliefs get results. 'You'll see it when you believe it' , is true, however you may be the only one believing, that is also true. |
'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/ |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 10:03:10 [Permalink]
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| Wow you are superb at only reading what you want to read, does the other stuff bounce off? Your thnking is faulty, stop tring to make evidence fit preconcieved ideas. Look at the evidence, if it doesnt match (in this case it isnt even close)then move on to another possible explination like, gee I dont know- Guy with a chisel was bored- Ta Da!, makes a lot more sense than some way complicated diagram of venus which is then dumbed down to five concentric circles for easy remembering. WTF? If they were carving it into stone dont you think they would use the accurate version? And what the hell does venus have to do with this stuff in the first place... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 12:15:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
I was thinking more on the idea that the nearest full moon to the beginning or ending of a synodic cycle would help to identify the position in the 8 year cycle. But for this to be true there would have to be a relationship between Venus and the moon also.
There is, but it's on the order of a 360-year relationship, at least, and not encompassed by the Delphic symbol.quote:
Another thing which is impotant to think about from an observing point of view is that Venus goes retrograde about every 18 months and lasts about six weeks. This means that if the diagram was based on relative motions and positions it would also need to reflect this.
Sure, and how might that be represented in the Delphic symbol?
Of course, if the symbol isn't a tool or a "map" for figuring out double-Olympiads via Venus' position, then all bets are off and it could mean anything, or nothing at all (just a decorative design).quote:
I agree with :
quote:
Believing in things doesn't make them true
However, if they are true, beliefs get results.
I happen to think that it's actually the truth that gets the results. After all, I don't "believe in" gravity.quote:
'You'll see it when you believe it' , is true, however you may be the only one believing, that is also true.
But people believe in plenty of things they'll never see, and see things they don't believe, so the saying is of limited usefulness. And, of course, a lack of belief in a thing doesn't make it false. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 13:31:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another thing which is impotant to think about from an observing point of view is that Venus goes retrograde about every 18 months and lasts about six weeks. This means that if the diagram was based on relative motions and positions it would also need to reflect this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, and how might that be represented in the Delphic symbol?
I was thinking it could be why the rings alternate upper, lower reflecting a retrograge cycle which corresponds with a new synodic cycle every 18 months. The join in the rings represents the horizon. (earth's frame of reference). Flicking from one ring to the next shows a retrograde motion like a mirror.
quote:
Of course, if the symbol isn't a tool or a "map" for figuring out double-Olympiads via Venus' position, then all bets are off and it could mean anything, or nothing at all (just a decorative design).
Agreed.
quote:
[But people believe in plenty of things they'll never see, and see things they don't believe, so the saying is of limited usefulness. And, of course, a lack of belief in a thing doesn't make it false.
quote:
I happen to think that it's actually the truth that gets the results. After all, I don't "believe in" gravity.
That would imply there is only one truth and that if you believe in that one truth you'll see results which are consistent. With which I agree.
I was intrigued by how the Maya used the fork stick to calculate the path of venus and to predict solar eclipses ??
I found this link below on the Dresden Codex, a Mayan almanac.
[url][http://members.shaw.ca/mjfinley/4VENUS.htm/url]
This interested me on the site about 65 Venus periods :
quote:
This was certainly part of Maya augury in the post-Classical period. The Dresden Codex Venus pages show Venus deities armed with spears to pierce their victims. The primary function of the Venus table appears to have been to fix the dates of rituals associated with the apparitions of Venus and supply auguries for these dates. The table is entered at a heliacal rise of Venus on the tzolk'in date 1 (hun) Ahaw, and tracks through 65 synodic periods of Venus (37960 days).
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'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/ |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 14:07:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
I was thinking it could be why the rings alternate upper, lower reflecting a retrograge cycle which corresponds with a new synodic cycle every 18 months. The join in the rings represents the horizon. (earth's frame of reference). Flicking from one ring to the next shows a retrograde motion like a mirror.
Except that you know that the retrograde motion only lasts for a few weeks, and not an entire cycle. In fact, every cycle has a period of retrograde in it. And what does the horizon have to do with Venus' retrograde motion, since where in the sky Venus goes backwards changes each cycle?quote:
That would imply there is only one truth and that if you believe in that one truth you'll see results which are consistent. With which I agree.
There you go: if you believe that there's no such thing as an "objective reality," then all discussions of science are worthless. It is, of course, an assumption which cannot be tested, but it's the basis for all our knowledge.quote:
I found this link below on the Dresden Codex, a Mayan almanac.
[Fixed Link]
This interested me on the site about 65 Venus periods :
quote:
This was certainly part of Maya augury in the post-Classical period. The Dresden Codex Venus pages show Venus deities armed with spears to pierce their victims. The primary function of the Venus table appears to have been to fix the dates of rituals associated with the apparitions of Venus and supply auguries for these dates. The table is entered at a heliacal rise of Venus on the tzolk'in date 1 (hun) Ahaw, and tracks through 65 synodic periods of Venus (37960 days).
Yup, as that site continues, it may very well be that the Maya were attempting to reconcile Venus' timing with the Moon's, in order to keep certain rituals at certain times. The Maya and the Greeks, of course, knew nothing of each other. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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serendipitypublishing
Skeptic Friend
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 16:51:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Except that you know that the retrograde motion only lasts for a few weeks, and not an entire cycle. In fact, every cycle has a period of retrograde in it.
Yes. That's true.
quote:
And what does the horizon have to do with Venus' retrograde motion, since where in the sky Venus goes backwards changes each cycle?
Venus only appears to go backwards using the earth (horizon) as a frame of reference. So I was inverting the horizon to show this change.
quote:
Yup, as that site continues, it may very well be that the Maya were attempting to reconcile Venus' timing with the Moon's, in order to keep certain rituals at certain times.
The Mayan calander or table would have gone out of sync if repeated over and over. I'm wondering whether the table was just used to identify a pattern with the moon, venus and the sun. |
'We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars'
Oscar Wilde
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/freeflowpyramids/ |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2005 : 19:36:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by serendipitypublishing
Venus only appears to go backwards using the earth (horizon) as a frame of reference. So I was inverting the horizon to show this change.
Venus (and all the other planets) appears to go backwards during retrograde motion relative to the distant stars and Sun as viewed from Earth. Venus was last in retrograde motion between May 18th and July 1st of last year (and in inferior conjunction on June 8th). Venus is always in retrograde motion as it makes the transition from being an "evening star" back to being a "morning star," which means it crosses at least two nodes of the Delphic-symbol-as-Venus-chart (which I'll call the "Delphic calendar" from now on) during retrograde. The only segments on your diagram in which Venus is never retrograde are B, F, J, N and R, and it is always retrograde for segments D, H, L, P and T.quote:
The Mayan calander or table would have gone out of sync if repeated over and over. I'm wondering whether the table was just used to identify a pattern with the moon, venus and the sun.
Well, the Dephlic calendar will go out of sync, also, since five synodic periods of Venus is actually two days short of eight years (on average). For every 120 years (or so), Venus would be "out of sync" by a month.
But, the Mayans had corrective figures, it seems, for using the chart repeatedly. Sorta like leap years. Similarly, a two-day "holiday" every eight years, prior to reseting the Delphic calendar, would have sufficed to keep it "ticking" fairly accurately for a long time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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