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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 02/03/2005 : 21:27:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
(Where is my Duct Tape of Healing +6?)
It was all used up by Tarantino in "From Dusk 'til Dawn". |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2005 : 21:35:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Well.. that is not exactly true H. Humbert... there are documented cases with multiple witnesses look at just the one link I believe filthy left ....
Once again, you are confused. Show me where there are "documented cases" of brains manifesting images or specters outside of itself and into reality under laboratory conditions.
You might have a few anecdotes of doppelgänger sightings, but nowhere is the mechanism for producing one in any way linked to brain activity, aside from mere speculation, such as you enjoy engaging in.
Furthemore, your argument "the brain is vast" is an argument from ignorance. You can't claim the brain is capable of anything simply because we don't know everything the brain is capable of. Suffice it to say, thus far we know the brain is involved with thinking and bodily control. Recovered, repressed, and false memories are things that at least fall within these known functions. Bi-location and astral projection are not known capabilities of any body part.
Yes, it really is exactly like claiming feet can breathe. You are claiming something that has never been directly observed anywhere by anyone.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2005 : 21:37:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
The mind is a vast and complex sysytem one that science has not yet been able to fully understand... The foot well.. let us not compare...
Why not? If you think the foot is a simple thing, I suggest you try to build a fully-functioning foot from scratch, by hand (I'm well aware that your uterus is capable of making feet). And I'm also very sure that there's at least one thing inside a foot which doctors don't yet understand.quote:
there are documented cases with multiple witnesses...
What - precisely what - are those documented cases supposed to demonstrate? And how do they demonstrate whatever it is they're supposed to demonstrate? Such exacting reporting is required for evidence to be accepted as relevant and useful. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 07:40:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H.Humbert
quote:
Once again, you are confused. Show me where there are "documented cases" of brains manifesting images or specters outside of itself and into reality under laboratory conditions.
Under laboratory conditions.... If it is not controlable, repeatable, then it does not exist.... Man always trying to be dominant... Controlling... or should I say Humanity... Woman included... The fact is H. There were times when we did not know the cause of certain phenomenon like say.... the weather... but with time and many of hundreds of years... we have learned to understand the phenomenon.... If you think I am looking for Supernatural parnormal awnsers I am not... I am searching for natural awnsers to documented cases... let me just repeat what I said Documentated cases...
Originally posted by H. HUmbert
quote:
Furthemore, your argument "the brain is vast" is an argument from ignorance. You can't claim the brain is capable of anything simply because we don't know everything the brain is capable of. Suffice it to say, thus far we know the brain is involved with thinking and bodily control. Recovered, repressed, and false memories are things that at least fall within these known functions. Bi-location and astral projection are not known capabilities of any body part.
Why is it an argument for ignorance? No in a certain way we cannot... I think in a closed minded way... but I am not really claiming that.. I am just open to the possibilities... the possibilities of what our mind can do... Bi-location, Astral Projection are very known H... It has been done for thousands of years... by many different cultures... Science study into it is young...
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
What - precisely what - are those documented cases supposed to demonstrate? And how do they demonstrate whatever it is they're supposed to demonstrate? Such exacting reporting is required for evidence to be accepted as relevant and useful.
They demonstrate a phenomenon ... An anomoly... yet we do not know how the phenomenon works.... like I said before I am not asking you to think that answers lie in the supernatural... the paranormal... I am talking purely of natural functions... or disfunctions of the human brain...
There was a time when we did not have electricity... but yet electricity was always there... just not understood... |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 08:35:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Why is it an argument for ignorance?
How is it not? You're arguing that since we are ignorant of the entirety of the brain's workings, we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that bilocation is a natural function of the brain.quote:
It has been done for thousands of years... by many different cultures...
And yet, if it is so ubiquitous, and natural, it should be replicatible in a labratory environment.quote:
Science study into it is young...
Not really. Look how far the scientific study of DNA has taken us in just 50-something years. Scientific study of the innards of atoms brought us the A-Bomb in less than 40 years. How much time would you have us wait on the study of bilocation and other abilities before we say, "there's nothing to study?"quote:
They demonstrate a phenomenon ... An anomoly...
More likely, they demonstrate only that people believe there is a phenomenon.quote:
yet we do not know how the phenomenon works....
It may not even exist. Why are you closing your mind to that possibility?
quote:
like I said before I am not asking you to think that answers lie in the supernatural... the paranormal... I am talking purely of natural functions...
An actual ability to bilocate or astrally project would be para- or super-normal, by definition. These abilities, in their classical descriptions, do not follow normal laws of physics after all.quote:
or disfunctions of the human brain...
Well, if all you want to say is "perceived bilocation only happens during pathological brain states," I'd agree with you, but I don't think that's what you're saying at all. I think you believe that the ability exists, as does one's ability to whistle.quote:
There was a time when we did not have electricity... but yet electricity was always there... just not understood...
And that's just a rephrasing of your argument from ignorance. "We were once ignorant of electricity, but it's real - therefore we may just be ignorant of bilocation." The fact that we learn things over time does not allow us to predict that we will ever learn specific things we don't know now. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 09:35:00 [Permalink]
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Why is it that everyone, including the scientist in the above link says "look at the data" and then fails to supply the data or where it can be found?
quote:
The article:
References
This article has no references.
What are we supposed to do with this? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 09:55:15 [Permalink]
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The argument from ignorance. Please click it Storm, and read it. Try to understand it.
It is a logical fallacy, not somebody calling you ignorant. Despite the obvious lack of knowledge you display concerning logic....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 18:35:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
http://www.paradigm-sys.com/cttart/sci-docs/ctt93-capta.html
How on earth could he possibly state: "To make a long story short, four basic psi phenomena, as they are now termed, had enough research with significant outcomes (dozens to hundreds of studies each) done on them that I consider them proven to exist beyond any reasonable doubt. These are three forms of extrasensory perception (ESP), viz. telepathy, clairvoyance and precognition, and one form of physical action on the material world, psychokinesis (PK). There may be other genuine forms of psi phenomena, but we will stick with these basic four here."
Well, he may consider them proven "beyond a reasonable doubt," but not very many other serious scientists do. The existence of those things are in fact what's at issue. He also provides exactly zero references to these "dozens to hundreds of studies" which prove his contention. Is it possible for you to link anything other than material that already assumes what you are trying to prove?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/04/2005 18:37:34 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 19:19:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
H, might I direct your attention to the Skeptic's Dictionary entry on Charles Tart?
Oh, he's that guy? I remember that story from Randi's site. Thanks for the link, Dave. I even used it as an example once of how often believers will cling to extraordinary explanations over mundane but more probable ones. As you can see, I've never been one for recollecting names.
And once again, Storm, find credible sources to support your views, otherwise you appear equally disreputable.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/04/2005 22:04:31 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 09:42:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Finally the discussion reached Out of Body Experience. Storm claimed several occasions of OoBE, however, to Trish, the ignored, and Dr. Mabuse this all sounded like sleep-paralysis.
However, in fairness, together we tried to devise a test through which Storm could gather evidence that her OoBE indeed was a true disembodied consciousness.
Sleep Paraylsis and Out of Body experience are similiar in that the physical body is: 1}Asleep 2)Feels paralyzed
There difference lies in the fact that during sleep paraylsis one does not have outer body or the perception of seeingenvisioning ones body outside of itself.... During sleep paraylsis one tends to not be able to run, escape or move ..sleep paraylsis has more to to with the physical ... while obe have more to do with consciousness... spirit....Astral...disembodied consciousness.. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 10:27:43 [Permalink]
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So does william james have an opinion or not? I read seeming endless pages and he doesnt seem to come to any conclusions whatsoever. The best I could find was something along the line of, Psi hasnt been firmly established by science, but they lack funding. WTF is that? This guy is just peicing together a puzzle, an information collector, he in no way is a scientist IMO because he does not lay out the established facts in any functional manner.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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