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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2005 : 11:03:07
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A recent study shows how little US high school students understand the First Amendment.
From the news release:
quote:
“High school attitudes about the First Amendment are important because each generation of citizens helps define what freedom means in our society,” the report reads.
Among its findings:
Nearly three-fourths of high school students either do not know how they feel about the First Amendment or admit they take it for granted.
Seventy-five percent erroneously think flag burning is illegal.
Half believe the government can censor the Internet.
More than a third think the First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees.
“These results are not only disturbing; they are dangerous,” said Knight Foundation President and CEO Hodding Carter III. “Ignorance about the basics of this free society is a danger to our nation's future.”
While I generally take most surveys with a grain truckload of salt, the pdf file of the report, including the questionaires used, is available.
Having stated the First Amendment,
quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
the study asked if the student agrees or disagrees with "The First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees". Sadly, 24% agreed with that statement!
19% disagreed with "Newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of a story". Apparently "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press" isn't clear to almost 1/5 of these kids.
Schools should take this as a sign that they are not adequately fulfilling their purpose of preparing young people for the future.
[Moved to the Social Issues folder - Dave W.]
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 11:44:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
19% disagreed with "Newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of a story". Apparently "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press" isn't clear to almost 1/5 of these kids.
But this brings up an interesting point. Suppose a reporter discovered that, say, during a war that we were going to send X troops to Y location for an assult at Z time. Would the press be free to put this on the front page?
What about a special announcement that scientists have discovered that mixing common agents in a certain way creates a lethal gas?
Or particularly vexing-- what if NASA astronomers found a giant life-terminating asteroid heading for earth? What's the government's role (if any) in controlling how that news is disseminated?
I'm not sure that I wouldn't want at least some government control on reporting certain things (undercover CIA agents, for instance), and perhaps (perhaps) that's what some of these kids were thinking... |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 12:34:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by R.Wreck
19% disagreed with "Newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of a story". Apparently "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press" isn't clear to almost 1/5 of these kids.
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But this brings up an interesting point. Suppose a reporter discovered that, say, during a war that we were going to send X troops to Y location for an assult at Z time. Would the press be free to put this on the front page?
What about a special announcement that scientists have discovered that mixing common agents in a certain way creates a lethal gas?
Or particularly vexing-- what if NASA astronomers found a giant life-terminating asteroid heading for earth? What's the government's role (if any) in controlling how that news is disseminated?
I'm not sure that I wouldn't want at least some government control on reporting certain things (undercover CIA agents, for instance), and perhaps (perhaps) that's what some of these kids were thinking...
Good points Cune. All rights have limits, otherwise one person's right would be bumping up against the rights of others. I believe there are laws against divulging information that could compromise national security or military strategy. And creating a lethal gas is not that difficult, just mix a random assortment of household cleaners and your likely to have something harmful bubble up. Hell, if you want the basics on how nuclear weapons are designed, you can find that on the internet. The asteroid one is interesting due to the possible panic that could ensue.
I just doubt that the one in five high schoolers who thought the government should approve news stories put that much thought into their answers. I would be more inclined to believe that most of them just don't understand the relationship between the government and the press. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 12:46:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
Good points Cune. All rights have limits, otherwise one person's right would be bumping up against the rights of others. I believe there are laws against divulging information that could compromise national security or military strategy. And creating a lethal gas is not that difficult, just mix a random assortment of household cleaners and your likely to have something harmful bubble up. Hell, if you want the basics on how nuclear weapons are designed, you can find that on the internet.
Right-- I know that there are laws about certain military/intel things, and I've heard about the plans for building a nuke being on-line and such. As for the poison gas, I was thinking something more in the lines of mixing this-and-that and then let prevailing winds carry it to wipe out the nearest city. Of course, it's doubtless not very easy, but when should the government step in and say "we don't want to make it too easy for terrorists to create such things"? And when does that get in the way of scientific advancement?
quote:
The asteroid one is interesting due to the possible panic that could ensue.
My point exactly. When do people have a right to, say, "make peace with their god(s)" and when is that right give way to a government's desire to limit a perceived threat to stability? (After all, announcing that an asteriod is going to smash into earth in 5 days may create mass panic, or it may not (I, for instance, would be trying hard to have lots of sex with my hot neighbor)!)
quote:
I just doubt that the one in five high schoolers who thought the government should approve news stories put that much thought into their answers. I would be more inclined to believe that most of them just don't understand the relationship between the government and the press.
True, but perhaps at least some were. So maybe the future isn't quite as bad as this survey suggests...
[/quote] |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 13:26:04 [Permalink]
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A mixure of chlorine bleach and ammonia would do the job, in an enclosed space at least. As I recall from reading, in WW-I some gas attacks went wrong when the wind shifted. Suprise! 
Side note: Adolph Hitler was temporarly blinded in a gas attack and spent some time in hospital for it.
The only lines that should be drawn are those of libel and national security, and why isn't that treasonous slimeball Novak in the can? And of course accuracy, something that we see all to little of in these days of Republican domination of the media outlets.
Those are highschool kids. They all might change their minds next week.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 18:09:21 [Permalink]
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I think Cune has a point which also means we can't be too sure what the results mean if we don't interview the kids further.
Not that I think kids are learning enough since reading about surveys that show a majority of Harvard grads don't know the cause of the lunar phases, (some said Earth's shadow), nor why we have seasons, (most thought the distance to the Sun rather than the angle of the Sun's rays).
But if the kids answering the questions were thinking things like yelling fire in a theater it could have influenced their answers. Survey tools need to be tested and evaluated before being used but except when you write your thesis or do peer reviewed research, the tools rarely are evaluated before use. And now that I said that, I guess I better read that pdf file.  |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2005 : 19:23:25 [Permalink]
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| Why does that opinion mean they are not learning? It is a valid opion and we are the "land of the free", is everyone required to have patriotic ideals now? Just because some dont believe in free speach doesnt mean squat except that our country is working as intended. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 01:56:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
And creating a lethal gas is not that difficult, just mix a random assortment of household cleaners and your likely to have something harmful bubble up.
Ammonia + bleach = mono and di chloramine gas (don't know how to do subscripts on this forum, if we even can, so I'll just use the names of the substances). This will kill you.
Bleach + phosphate based cleaner = Chlorine gas. Also, will kill you.
Keeping this kind of information from people is NOT a good thing.
quote:
Why does that opinion mean they are not learning? It is a valid opion and we are the "land of the free", is everyone required to have patriotic ideals now? Just because some dont believe in free speach doesnt mean squat except that our country is working as intended.
Actually I have to take issue with this. There are certain issues where it is NOT OK to hold a certain opinion. Free speach is one of them. Slavery is another, and so is the idea of a free press.
Remember, we live in a country where the majority rules. When it becomes OK to hold certain opinions on these key issues, the rules we have concerning them could be changed. On the day that 51% of us believe that free speach should be abolished, then the possibility exists that it could be.
While I may disagree with the basis of the natural rights philosophy, I totally agree with it's conclusions. All of us have certain unalienable rights, regardless of what the "opinion" of anyone else (even the majority) may be.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 05:31:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
(After all, announcing that an asteriod is going to smash into earth in 5 days may create mass panic, or it may not (I, for instance, would be trying hard to have lots of sex with my hot neighbor)!)
Therein lies the problem, some people will think it might take too much time convincing his neighbour it is a good idea, and make that choice for her, even if she disagrees.
That's grim, and I don't wish for it to happen to anyone. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 05:34:03 [Permalink]
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| Mmm... thankfully none of us are psychos, right Filthy? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 07:22:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Therein lies the problem, some people will think it might take too much time convincing his neighbour it is a good idea, and make that choice for her, even if she disagrees. That's grim, and I don't wish for it to happen to anyone.
Indeed, Mab. But I'm soooo charming that surely-- were we quickly approaching the end of the world-- she'd want to go out with a . . . eh, never mind. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 07:29:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
And creating a lethal gas is not that difficult, just mix a random assortment of household cleaners and your likely to have something harmful bubble up.
Ammonia + bleach = mono and di chloramine gas (don't know how to do subscripts on this forum, if we even can, so I'll just use the names of the substances). This will kill you.
Bleach + phosphate based cleaner = Chlorine gas. Also, will kill you.
Keeping this kind of information from people is NOT a good thing.
Quite right. Anyone who cleans needs to know this in order not to accidently gas themselfs at home |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 20:12:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
don't know how to do subscripts on this forum, if we even can...
We can now. Using [sub] and [/sub]. Like this: H2O. H2SO4.
Another fine feature brought to you by the webmaster of the Skeptic Friends Network.
(That's be @tomic.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 20:38:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
We can now. Using [ sub] and [ /sub]. Like this: H2O. H2SO4.
Another fine feature brought to you by the webmaster of the Skeptic Friends Network.
(That's be @tomic.)
Nice!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 03:03:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Mmm... thankfully none of us are psychos, right Filthy?
I don't know. The Voices haven't discussed it with me yet, but when they do I'll get back to you...and you...and you...and you, too...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/10/2005 03:33:56 |
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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2005 : 08:03:44 [Permalink]
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well, no one has entered anything here for almost two weeks, so i guess i have free reign to say whatever i damn well please. blah bligitie boo, frickin faurkaiukion.
well, now that that's over, i guess i'll try and make some kind of cogent addition to the debate here. the arguments about the lengths to which we have a right to go for free speech aside (though, the asteroid thing does make a very interesting moral debate), it is positively terrifying that high schoolers are making these kinds of statements.
for years, as we've all read the reports ("25% of high school students think congress is some kind of vegetable" and the like), it was easy enough to shrug off the results as either being the answers of smart ass kids--i remember in one survey i completed in high school, i said i took herion at least three times a week--or the kids who, let's face it, didn't care about school and were likely to end up cleaning grease traps and wearing a giant "m" on all of their work shirts.
but this survey acted as more of a moral barometer, and there is no way to tell who these kids are that are answering like this. 80% of these answers could have come from the top 5% of the class. these are the kids who will someday (someday soon) be making the big decisions and calling all the shots.
now many of those who have never heard the voice of dissent will have their attitudes radically adjusted by the college experience, but many will also look at what people are saying out there and decide even more firmly that people should be prevented from saying certain things ("praise allah" comes to mind). it is easier to strengthen a conviction one already has than it is to change one. certainly everyone here has seen evidence of that. that is why this study is so scary.
oh, and in high school, i did heroin no more than once a week. ;p (peer pressure, ya know.) |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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