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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2005 : 08:54:40
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In today's NY Times, Michael Behe tries to make the case for his Intelligent Design pet theory (you'll need to register with the on-line edition to read it-- but it's free, so why not do it?). He makes a number of claims. He quickly tries to remove the religion element from the discussion:quote:
First, what it isn't: the theory of intelligent design is not a religiously based idea, even though devout people opposed to the teaching of evolution cite it in their arguments. . . Intelligent design proponents do question whether random mutation and natural selection completely explain the deep structure of life. But they do not doubt that evolution occurred. And intelligent design itself says nothing about the religious concept of a creator.
True, but what's left unsaid is that ultimately, the explanation for life's ultimate creation must be supernatural. Then it's just a slippery slope to go from an undefined, non-religious creator to the Judeo-Christian Yahweh.
Next, he tries to argue that it's just obvious that design in nature is everywhere. For example:quote:
. . . [W]e can often recognize the effects of design in nature. For example, unintelligent physical forces like plate tectonics and erosion seem quite sufficient to account for the origin of the Rocky Mountains. Yet they are not enough to explain Mount Rushmore.
And:quote:
. . . the physical marks of design are visible in aspects of biology. . . The 18th-century clergyman William Paley likened living things to a watch, arguing that the workings of both point to intelligent design. Modern Darwinists disagree with Paley that the perceived design is real, but they do agree that life overwhelms us with the appearance of design.
Note the subtle perjorative "Darwinists" that he frequently tosses around. Creationists like to suggest that evolution is somehow akin to the worship of Darwin.
In any event, his examples are tired, and anyone who's read Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker is familiar with how utterly absurd Behe's arguments are.
Aftr these, Behe slips into some rather lame arguments:quote:
. . . [W]e have no good explanation for the foundation of life that doesn't involve intelligence. . . Darwinists assert that their theory can explain the appearance of design in life as the result of random mutation and natural selection acting over immense stretches of time. Some scientists, however, think the Darwinists' confidence is unjustified. They note that although natural selection can explain some aspects of biology, there are no research studies indicating that Darwinian processes can make molecular machines of the complexity we find in the cell.
Since I'm not trained as a biologist and have only limited knowledge of such things, I'm not in a position to comment on the latter part of the above quote. Nevertheless, it's not quite convincing (or satisfying) to toss out everything because we cannot yet explain exactly how every facet of evolution works...
The argument gets lamer, however:quote:
. . . [i]n the absence of any convincing non-design explanation, we are justified in thinking that real intelligent design was involved in life. . . The strong appearance of design allows a disarmingly simple argument: if it looks, walks and quacks like a duck, then, absent compelling evidence to the contrary, we have warrant to conclude it's a duck. Design should not be overlooked simply because it's so obvious.
Straw man. No one is dismissing it because it's "obvious"-- in fact, a close look at arguments of design show that any appearance of design is superficial. Indeed, it's "obvious" that it wasn't designed!
And of course, he concludes with an appeal to the masses:quote:
Besides, whatever special restrictions scientists adopt for themselves don't bind the public, which polls show, overwhelmingly, and sensibly, thinks that life was designed. And so do many scientists who see roles for both the messiness of evolution and the elegance of design.
And most Americans think that the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqi. Indeed, most of the American public is quite stupid. Of course they'd buy into such a simplistic theory (assuming that Behe's poll assertions are even true...).
Tragically, what's left out of the discussion is how, exactly, we're supposed to move on in our attempts to understand the universe if, when we get to difficult questions, we stop researching, shrug our shoulders and posit that some intelligent creator did all the work.
*Sigh* Let's hope that tomorrow's letters section will feature some solid critiques of Behe's piece...
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Edited by - Cuneiformist on 02/07/2005 12:04:00
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:22:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Cuneiformist quoted Behe
Intelligent design proponents do question whether random mutation and natural selection completely explain the deep structure of life.
As if evolutionary biologists don't. But the simple fact of the matter is that for decades, now, it's been known that just random mutation and natural selection are not sufficient to explain the diversity of life on this planet.quote:
Darwinists assert that their theory can explain the appearance of design in life as the result of random mutation and natural selection acting over immense stretches of time.
And those Darwinists would be wrong.quote:
Some scientists, however, think the Darwinists' confidence is unjustified.
Most evolutionary biologists think so, also.
In other words, Behe is stating, clearly and unequivocably, that ID is almost entirely a straw man argument.quote:
They note that although natural selection can explain some aspects of biology, there are no research studies indicating that Darwinian processes can make molecular machines of the complexity we find in the cell.
Yet, ID proposes no alternative explanation. Should we really toss out our current best theory in favor of nothing?
And, after checking, I find the people at The Panda's Thumb are, of course, all over this. See "Critical Analysis... of Intelligent Design" and "Behe jumps the shark." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:29:51 [Permalink]
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Behe is no more than another religious whore who has prostituted his education and intellect for dogma. Behe and all of his works be damned.
And speaking of Darwinists, Darwin'd birthday is on the 12th of this fair month. I am going to celebrate by evolving, over time, a chicken into feces. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:53:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And, after checking, I find the people at The Panda's Thumb are, of course, all over this. See "Critical Analysis... of Intelligent Design" and "Behe jumps the shark."
Hmmm. Sadly, those two did a better job of dissecting Behe than I. And worse, they actually get fun little fundies to comment on their critique and defend Behe! Why don't they stop be here?! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 10:27:43 [Permalink]
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Well, Cune, don't forget that Nick Matzke holds Bachelors degrees in biology and chemistry, Mastered in geography, and intends to get a doctorate in bioinformatics. And PZ Myers is an associate professor of biology at the University of Minnesota, Morris. So, don't worry that actual trained biologists did better at dissecting than you did.
And we do have "fun little fundies" here, I just don't think they know much about Behe. We appear to attract more of the Hovind-worshipping crowd. The real fundies, not the "liberal" anti-Christians who're willing to state that the Bible isn't the literal truth. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 12:44:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, Cune, don't forget that Nick Matzke holds Bachelors degrees in biology and chemistry, Mastered in geography, and intends to get a doctorate in bioinformatics. And PZ Myers is an associate professor of biology at the University of Minnesota, Morris. So, don't worry that actual trained biologists did better at dissecting than you did.
Ah-- I see. So I don't feel so bad. And reading the 'comments' section that follows their blogs (or whatever)-- is quite interesting!
quote:
And we do have "fun little fundies" here, I just don't think they know much about Behe. We appear to attract more of the Hovind-worshipping crowd. The real fundies, not the "liberal" anti-Christians who're willing to state that the Bible isn't the literal truth.
True, perhaps. And then there's Verlch, whose evolutionary stance seems to be entirely his own. Nevertheless, I miss the long debate with JerryB that took place a few months ago. He, at least, seemed to have some grasp of science (though not, I fear, statistics!)... |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 17:54:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nevertheless, I miss the long debate with JerryB that took place a few months ago. He, at least, seemed to have some grasp of science (though not, I fear, statistics!)...
JerryB gets a failing grade on statistics, logic, AND scientific method.
He pretty clearly proved that he was little more than a willing liar who only intends to promote his dogma at the expense of reality.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 18:28:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Ah-- I see. So I don't feel so bad.
No, what you should feel bad about is describing trained biologists as dissecting an op-ed piece. Sheesh!
No, really, while trying to avoid sounding condescending, I'd like to say that you did a fine job on it, for someone without the right sheepskin background. I'm in the same boat.
Actually, I just noticed one thing I would quibble with. You wrote that it's "obvious" that life isn't designed, but one of the real problems with Behe's piece is his equivocation of all meanings of the word 'design'. Life, you see, is designed, but not by human beings. Natural selection and other evolutionary forces have, indeed, "designed" the life we see today. Few biologists would disagree with that characterization.quote:
And reading the 'comments' section that follows their blogs (or whatever)-- is quite interesting!
I'm more-or-less a dedicated reader over there, simply because of the sheer size of some of their brains. I've regularly had flashes of insight, reading Panda's Thumb articles and comments, that have changed the way I've understood evolution and the current brouhaha about it.quote:
True, perhaps. And then there's Verlch, whose evolutionary stance seems to be entirely his own.
I think he just makes it up as he goes along.quote:
Nevertheless, I miss the long debate with JerryB that took place a few months ago. He, at least, seemed to have some grasp of science (though not, I fear, statistics!)...
I'd concur with Dude here, but I'd use more diplomatic terms.  Jerry didn't have a grasp of science, he had a chokehold on it, trying to bend it to his will through brute force. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2005 : 20:15:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Actually, I just noticed one thing I would quibble with. You wrote that it's "obvious" that life isn't designed, but one of the real problems with Behe's piece is his equivocation of all meanings of the word 'design'. Life, you see, is designed, but not by human beings. Natural selection and other evolutionary forces have, indeed, "designed" the life we see today. Few biologists would disagree with that characterization.
Right, Dave, and I actually struggled with this for awhile before writing. I guess is how we choose to interpret the word 'design.' Behe obviously means for 'design' to imply intelligent action. I was following him. But it's true that various forces-- e.g. natural selection-- are designing life's diversity on earth. But even if we've given a name to it, does natural selection really design? Did a river design the Grand Canyon? By some interpretation, yes. But obviously not Behe's-- hence the need to add "Intelligent" before "Design." |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 02/07/2005 20:15:33 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 01:46:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Behe is no more than another religious whore who has prostituted his education and intellect for dogma.
I thought he sold his soul for YEC money.
Isn't Behe almost an theistic evolutionist? He doesn't even deny common descent. It's natural selection that he attacks.
Behes IC rubbish has been irrelevant to natural selection since 1918. His value to the creationist is that he is a working scientist disagreeing with Darwin. The fact that he disagrees with the YEC crowd more than Darwin doesn't seem to hurt their symbiosis or his book sales. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 11:09:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
I thought he sold his soul for YEC money.
Isn't Behe almost an theistic evolutionist? He doesn't even deny common descent. It's natural selection that he attacks.
He did.
And what he, and most other opponents of evolution, do is create a nice strawman (that ToE addresses the origins of life itself) and attack it, rather than try to come up with a better explanation for the evidence.
They are really quite pathetic. To bad that the majority of the people in this country are to stupid/ignorant to see that they are being lied to by these people.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 22:36:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Behe is no more than another religious whore who has prostituted his education and intellect for dogma. Behe and all of his works be damned.
You just got to love the little rhyme in the beginning of that link:
quote:
Behemoth or be he not
He be nothing when I swat
Which pretty much sums up what the rebuttal does to Behe's argument. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 07:17:06 [Permalink]
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| Well, though the New York Times hasn't published a reply to Behe's op-ed piece (yet), today, they did feature eight letters today about it. The tally looks like 7 against Behe and one (the last one) basically telling everyone to screw off... |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 02/09/2005 07:17:27 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 05:14:01 [Permalink]
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One of the authorities cited by Behe, Bruce Alberts, has made a response in NY Times to Behe's ed.
He's not so happy with being quoted by an ID-iot. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 09:01:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
One of the authorities cited by Behe, Bruce Alberts, has made a response in NY Times to Behe's ed.
He's not so happy with being quoted by an ID-iot.
quote:
In evolution, as in all areas of science, our knowledge is incomplete. But the entire success of the scientific enterprise has depended on an insistence that these gaps be filled by natural explanations, logically derived from confirmable evidence. Because "intelligent design" theories are based on supernatural explanations, they can have nothing to do with science.
Yesss...
The general dishonesty represented by Behe, Dembski and the rest of the ID conspiricy is appaling. They habitually quote-mine, spin and twist statements, and worst of all know that they have no science to back up their claims, but make them anyway. I wish I could lie so well; I'd be a rich man today.
I wonder if Behe makes barbeque and if so, I further wonder if there's any meat in it.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 09:01:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
One of the authorities cited by Behe, Bruce Alberts, has made a response in NY Times to Behe's ed.
He's not so happy with being quoted by an ID-iot.
Bruce Alberts only made one single mistake when writing that response:
quote:
Because "intelligent design" theories are based on supernatural explanations, they can have nothing to do with science.
He should have put 'theories' inside the quotation marks.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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