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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2005 : 10:05:17 [Permalink]
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woolytoad-but the game here was not played with dice. the problem was set up as a computer problem, the author intentionally threw in some red herrings to put people off the scent of the actual source of the score. i won't discuss them in a public forum when the answer has not yet been posted, but you know what i mean. now, some people are exceptional at pattern recognition. for them it would be an easy leap. others are distracted by the minutae, and would be thrown off by the wording of the puzzle and the unnecessary visual components. i am one of those, so i went in and solved it the best way i know how.
now, for this particular problem, i feel that my knowledge of coding (and my willingness to use/abuse that knowledge, with a tip of my hat to ms. siberia for upholding her ethics in the face of frustration) makes my solution just as valid as one reached by someone who recognizes patterns intuitively. we reached the same destination via different routes, i just happened to need a map.
obviously, if this were a test being done with regular dice, then my route would not have been plausible, but this was not being done with regular dice. had it been, then i would have had to find another way of solving it (and it would have taken much more than 17 tries), but it was a quick, painless, and straightforward way of solving the problem at hand.
so, either i am simply being pragmatic, or i cheated and am now trying to logic my way out of it. either way, it was fun. :) |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 10:11:34 [Permalink]
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| There's no big cash prize involved, so no one cares about "cheating" anyway, if there is such a thing. It's all up to you, and you're smarter than I am for figuring it out that way. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 10:47:40 [Permalink]
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gorgo-thanks for the compliment, though i highly doubt it's true.
the interest i have in hearing the opinions regarding whether or not this is cheating are more of an academic curiosity. as this was not stated in the rules as being illegal, do i as a participate in the game have an obligation to make the assumption? i'm more concerned with hearing a debate on the ethics of the action behind the action (looking at the source code rather than toughing it out manually) than i am with the actual solution itself. |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 11:06:44 [Permalink]
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| apparently, i am a verb now. i'm pretty sure i meant "as a participant" |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 11:10:02 [Permalink]
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| In a game for fun? I don't know. Would it be unethical if I went to one of the web sites that explains it? Why would it? Nothing says that I can't. Once they tell me how to do it, I know how to do it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 11:42:51 [Permalink]
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Back when I was playing computer Mah Jongg solitaire a lot, my wife used to accuse me of cheating if I undid a move. Of course, I would sit there playing the same layout over and over until I either figured it out or proved it was impossible to solve, so her goals and mine were somewhat different. Anyway, I kept telling her that if the game specifically allows me to do something, then it certainly isn't cheating. However, looking at the data files to finish adventure games, though not specifically disallowed, is cheating in my book (and I've done it a couple times out of sheer frustration).
What you did, sumnihil, falls into a grey area in between. If your only goal was to learn the solution, then no. My goal, when working on it, was not only to learn the solution, but to do it on my own, especially since one of my first impulses was to go searching the Web for an explanation. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 12:19:35 [Permalink]
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thank you both for your posts. certainly worth thinking about. i approached this as more of a puzzle than a game, each having different goals. in my mind, a puzzle is to be solved, by whatever means available, short of asking someone who knows the answer. a game, on the other hand, is a sort of competition, with rules and a clear winner (and/or loser).
certainly, searching the web for an answer would be cheating, as you are in no way coming up with the answer yourself, you are parroting the answers of others. now, i would compare my situation to solving a crossword puzzle. if one were to look in the back page of the crossword section and the answer for that puzzle was printed there (as is lamentably the case with the orlando sentinel), taking answers from that for the puzzle would definitely be cheating. if, however, one were to solve a cryptogram that held within its cipher the answers for the crossword, then that is just using a different set of tools to solve the same problem. the crossword is built for word lovers, and the cryptogram is built (to an extent) for those with a love of maths and probabilities. using one's strength in one to solve the other does not seem like cheating to me.
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all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 12:27:36 [Permalink]
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| As long as you're doing what you want to do and don't misrepresent yourself, then it's not cheating. If I don't figure out by myself and sign up as a potentate of the Rose, then that's probably not how I want to be. Reading the code probably falls in that area, I don't know. Like I said. Who cares except for you? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 13:00:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Ok, so I finally got it. All told, I did about 60 rolls. One thing still confuses me: how is the name significant? That hint is still very lost on me...
Interesting. So Ricky and I have been having an exchange about the meaning of this clue and found out that we came about the solution via two completely different ways. For him, the name of the game was significant. For me, it was irrelevant to my solution. (And, of course, for sumnihil, it was definitely of no use!  ) I'm sure there's a point... |
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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 13:20:28 [Permalink]
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ricky-while i don't agree with the first part of your post (looking up the answer to a puzzle and doing research for a project are two entirely different animals), the second part made me think.
i suppose you are right. the way that i went about it was to come up with the solution by any means necessary. i should have just saved the time and looked on the web for the answer. but that stinks of cheating to me. i wonder if i am justifying my "gut instinct" as to what cheating is, while looking down on those who use the same logic i use to different ends.
cuneiformist--you are right, i don't see the signifigance of the title at all, and in fact, it was the reason i looked at the source code in the first place. the premise of the petals implied some pretty fancy mathematical footwork, and i wanted to see how it was done.
i guess it boils down to me being a cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater. which is odd, because i really don't enjoy pumpkin at all. |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 14:20:09 [Permalink]
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AT LAST!!! I finally figured it out! Now I have fifteen minutes left in the work day to accomplish some real work!  |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 14:23:36 [Permalink]
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I feel stupid
But I refuse to read the source code. No stupid rosy game will defeat me! [obsessive] |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 14:28:21 [Permalink]
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now i feel like an ass. those who can read the source code and choose not to make me feel like a politician (should one of them ever be unlucky enough to catch a bad case of conscience), and those who can't read the source code make me feel like a condescending schmuck.
but i stand by my decision to solve the puzzle my way. (actually, i'm hiding behind my decision to solve the puzzle my way). |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 14:33:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sumnihil
in my mind, a puzzle is to be solved, by whatever means available, short of asking someone who knows the answer.
Given this thought, I would consider the author of the source code to be "someone who knows the answer." The fact that he has written the answer down and left it more-or-less in plain sight (but, metaphorically, the paper is upside-down) doesn't really mean that you're not "asking" him for the answer when you take a look.
Forget your crossword/cryptogram example, wherein the author would be purposefully offering you two routes to the solution. Here's the real analogous situation: a person gives you a puzzle to solve, and due to incomplete preparation, has the answer written on a piece of paper in Swahili, stapled to your living room wall, backwards. You happened to know Swahili, lifted a staple, and took a look.
Well, from my point of view. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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